As expected, it didn't take him very long to reach this place. It figured that he had been watching the show since he would know that the motonic surge would disrupt anything that he had been doing at the moment, at least in regards of the shaping of fate. I shrugged at what he said about the ritual going off without a hitch and said, "Of course, unless interrupted a sorcerer is unlikely to flub a spell, barring the summoning of Demons or something similar given the resistance posed by their will. So long as the actions are carried out and the materials given, the result is guaranteed so long as the person is capable of using it," I said with a shrug, "Its one of the reasons I decided to become a Devonian. The inherently repeatable and guaranteed nature of Sorcery made their arguments make the most sense." I nodded when he said that he wasn't far away and went on about the effects of these sorts of rituals and how they affected fate, and made a few more comments besides. "Well, I was aware you weren't too far away, it is one of the benefits of the Sorcery I just used, along with being able to come and go wherever I please instantly within the boundaries of my Sanctuary," I said with a little bit of a shrug at that before contemplating what he had said about things getting old. "Well, for me the practice of Sorcery is a bit of a memorial to my Mate, especially when I invoke the miracles of the Adamant Circle. I study it the most in remembrance of him, and to me it helps me make his death not totally in vain. Beyond that, I suppose I might be somewhat jaded to it's effects compared to most, but I still feel a rush of awe at channeling the very powers of Creation beaten and taken from the Primordials themselves," I said, putting my feelings on the matter out there for him to digest. 

I thought about his offer to do something fun, such as gateway or having a little bit of a spar, and while the second one was something that was appealing, I would put it off for now since I had expended quite a bit of Essence in the shaping of this land into my Sanctuary, and would rather do it another time when we both were at our best. Gateway had long since become rather boring to me, as I had memorized all possible game outcomes a very long time ago, and I gave him a bit of a shrug at that. "Unfortunately, Gateway becomes far less amusing when you know every permutation that the game can offer and I would rather save a spar for when both of us are topped off and in peak condition, it has been quite a long time since I have been able to give it my all in a spar so I would really rather wait until that is a possibility," I said with a smile that belayed a bit of a competitive streak that I had deep down. I was rather interested to see how he stacked up against the best that I had to offer, and perhaps it might fuel some insight into more powerful techniques should I be pushed to my limit. So those options were rather off the table and I wasn't really familiar with what was considered fun for multiple people really, I was a bit of an introvert and what my mate and I did when I was young often involved reading books together when we took breaks to relax. Either that, or activities that I was not going to participate in with anyone besides my Mate. "If you have any other suggestions that might work out, then feel free to suggest them however. I am not the most familiar when it comes to such things," I added with a shrug before going on to what he said next.

"I wouldn't mind helping out, between my knowledge of it and the literature surrounding it from the copy of the Books of the Three Circles that I made before coming here it should be enough to make your job quite a bit easier," I said with a bit of a shrug before adding, "Some of it might be a bit technical and beyond what you usually do since a lot of the more detailed analysis of it uses Devonian Motonic Physics, but I would be happy to try to explain or translate it. I really can't recommend enough becoming more familiar with Sorcery and the Devonian School however, as it provides some of the best and most intellectual insights into the nature of how it all works, which likely could help greatly when you're dealing with the effects of these spells," I said, giving him a smile as I made my recommendation to him. I hadn't planned on doing much else today, as the workshops would be busy working on making the workers, guardians, and the like for at least the rest of today, if not tomorrow so I was more than willing to indulge him for now. He was rather insistent about me taking time off, and I figured now was a better time than later when there would be more important and necessary work for me to do. "Oh, and before I forget, here is your share of the Hearthstones. I figure you need them more than me so here are three, the ones you seemed to want before," I said, handing him a Seven Leaping Dragons Stone, a Gem of Perfect Mobility, and a Stone of Inhuman Beauty, each connected to a Manse."Also, Enki, please register Shinzo here as an Admin with the same authorities as me," I said, directing it at the AI who responded as programmed, "Very well, action completed. Is there anything I can do for you, Master Shinzo?" 

I thought about what he had said in regards to the influences, and if there had been some, how would they have been classified. It was a good question, that much was for sure, but I had an answer rather quickly, my mind running at speeds that would even give beings as powerful as the Incarnae or the Primordials a run for their money. "That would have provided some rather interesting data, that much is for sure. I would have to see how it disrupted the spell to be sure, but I would likely classify it as a new fundamental force unique to this dimension that caused it. Without any sort of data on how it would do such a thing, I can't say for sure how else it would be classified, however," I said, shrugging as I gave him the best answer that I could. "Well, yes it does tend to be rather messy at least if one isn't prepared for such an eventuality. The collateral damage is more of a problem than the backlash against the caster though, so at least in an area that is shaped like this it isn't too much of an issue," I said, shrugging as I responded to his concerns about the mess an interrupted casting could create. It did claim the lives of younger Solars, but that wasn't a problem for someone as old and experienced as me, I could take the heat with a bit of magic pretty easily.

And then something was off, he didn't act as he normally did. I couldn't fathom exactly why though, it was just very, very odd to me to say the very least. It was obvious enough that even I could tell that something was strange, even if I couldn't tell what, so that was saying something to be sure. His words after also made very little sense to me, everything in the world required sacrifice to gain, a sacrifice commensurate to what was gained. Exchange, the prices paid to gain one thing were paid with another, whether it be concrete or abstract. "I am unsure what has roused such a strange mood in you when it comes to this, Shinzo, but it seems a bit odd to say the least. As someone who practices the Sidereal Arts I would imagine you of all people know that power does not come with sacrifice, albeit in the case of the arts it is less obvious than it is for Sorcery. The time and effort, the blood, sweat, and tears put into countless hours of training. The long hours of meditation upon the sutras. All of these are sacrifices that you freely gave to obtain your power, just as I gave sacrifices to obtain my own," I said, tilting my head as I was obviously rather confused about what he had said about this subject. "To be honest, had I known what fate had in store for me in order to master the final circle, I would have never studied it. The sacrifices below the Circle of Adamant pale in magnitude to the final one. However, if I were to stop studying it as a result of what happened, I would simply be rendering the Sacrifice that I had made in vain, making it that much worse. By practicing the arts that my Mate gave up his life for me to learn, I make his sacrifice hold some meaning and in a way, carve his influence into the world long after his death. A small comfort, but one that I hold on to dearly," I said, sighing and shaking my head at that as I replied to what he said.

I tilted my head once again as I was puzzled by how he referred to what I had done, it was not like it was something special. It was simply a game with a set of rules that limited the number of unique games that could be played. "Well, by learning all the different permutations I can cross-reference the way I think about them with the way an AI thinks of them to compare thought patterns, it could have been anything extremely extensive like this, really. However, it seemed like a good choice since the extreme number of combinations allows for organic internalization of it as memory as well as a more systematic approach favored by AI. I figured by comparing them and finding out why the thought processes were different and how I could make them more organic with better algorithms, I could create a better AI. I have some of my results if you are interested, I've made a few breakthroughs and I might be able to improve or outmode I AM with some time and resources along with additional research," I said, giving him a miniature lecture about why I had decided to do that. It had taken me a decent length of time to learn all that, but it was not terrible compared to the results that I had extracted from the process. I once again tilted my head at what he said, still confused about the strange way that he was referring to the game. "I mean, as I said, all of these had existed before. I didn't suck anything out of it, I simply followed the logic of the game to it's utmost conclusion. I wouldn't consider it an end, really, especially since nobody else is likely to do this, nor is it unceremonious, after all, I simply completed the game according to the rules laid out so long ago. Quite a fitting 'end' as you put it, at least in my opinion," I said, shrugging as I gave my own opinion on it. It seemed a bit odd that he had such a sentimental view on it, but then again, my view was colored heavily by my Devonian thought.

"I suppose that might work for everything but the most advanced essence theories, I suppose. It should be enough for our purposes however. I was considering evaluating this realm's laws as well, so a bit more help would always be appreciated. Cross-checking data always makes sure that any mistakes are caught after all," I said, nodding to myself a bit as I said that. I followed him over to where he was working and walked up to the nearest wall and began to write, using the fingertip of my Hand of the Maker to leave lines on the wall with one of the many little features that I had built into the manse so that I could work whenever the fancy struck me. It even would be relayed into the archives so that it would be able to be shown elsewhere. I rather quickly wrote out the entire formula for the casting of the spell, before moving on to the motonic formulas that governed the various effects caused by the spell along with the way that they interacted with the other effects that were running here to give a full motonic breakdown of this place. Naturally, I had filled up the rather large wall from top to bottom over a width of several meters with script large enough for Shinzo to read. "Well, here's the formula. I marked which ones go to which, are you at all familiar with the notation or the different operators?" I asked, trying to figure out where I needed to begin for the lecture.

What he had been talking about before with the analysis of the sorcery in this realm only registered a bit of a blip, it was all things I had considered anyway. However, what he went on to say about sorcery after that and trying to attack my comparison to the Sidereal Arts in regards to Sacrifice and how everything requires sacrifice. That really was odd, and I could not let it stand, there was a rather glaring flaw in his argument, the fact that he seemed to think that he knew what exactly he had given up to learn the Arts. I sighed and shook my head, before beginning my rebuttal. "And so does the initiation into the Sidereal Arts, even if it is done more slowly than most Sacrifices to reach Sorcery. That time that you spent, that effort that you spent, all of it could have been used to do so many different things, time that you will never be able to get back. It is impossible to know what you missed in the time that you were training, what you gave up that is to say," I said, giving him a firm look, "Not only that, but the Sacrifice to obtain power depends on the strength of said power. I am more than willing to dispute your claim that the Sidereal Arts are a similar level to the Circle of Adamant for a number of reasons, most notably flexibility, scope, and duration. Not only that but the ease of learning them as well." I took a pause to let that sink in before giving my examples, "To create a new effect of great power in Sorcery, one must simply create that one effect. To do so with the Sidereal Arts, it is very likely that a whole style would be needed and we the Solar Exalted are incapable of developing them. Further, the Sidereal Arts tend to have effects that are smaller in scope if similar in power, and they cannot create such enduring miracles as the works of Sorcery. Take for example the spell I just used, I doubt that it would ever be able to be replicated with the Sidereal arts. So obviously the Sacrifice to obtain this power is greater," I said, taking that as proof positive. "The Celestial Circle is more comparable to the Sidereal Arts, but is also a Sacrifice that I would be willing to make still, as it is far less than something of the magnitude that the Circle of Adamant."

I sighed and shook my head as I was even more confused by this all, it didn't add up really. "And again, this is something that is done and complete. To go back in time and erase what has happened is impossible, so I simply seek to either overturn death itself, a slightly more possible challenge considering the existence of Necromancy and Biomotonic Replicants, or make his death not in vain. By practicing my Sorcery and using it to further the Realm's knowledge, I leave his mark on the world through his Sacrifice. Not only that, but by using it to protect myself, I let him protect me from even beyond the grave, as he wished to protect me so much that he threw away his life for me. So I do not understand what the objection you have to it is, it simply makes no sense to me," I said, making my confusion known and on the table. It really did puzzle me extremely, it just made very little sense to me that he was objecting in the way that he was to what I had said.

I waved off what he had said about the gateway games, obviously not too concerned with such a small number of boards to memorize for my research. "And such a thing is child's play for someone of my skill and intellect, Shinzo. Between my hearthstone, some artifacts to help with the uptake of knowledge, and my charms in the areas of Lore, such a thing was well worth my time in order to improve my AIs. It was one of many brekathroughs, yes, including a way to make automata more closely emulate the Virtues of living beings, blurring the line further between them and what might possibly be completely artificial spirits created by an entirely new process. That will show Bright, thinking that shes the best engineer of AI's around. Ha, that's laughable. She spends too much time politicking to be able to be on the bleeding edge in my opinion," I said, letting my competitive streak come out again. I shrugged at what he said about that and said, "Well perhaps, but everything is a puzzle to be solved even if it isn't intended to be. The same could be said about Creation, so many things are filled with awe or superstition until they are broken down and understood, allowing us to advance further and tame the world to our will."

I thought rather quickly about the issue that was here about that and tried to figure out the best way to get that across to him and thought a bit about it. "It's a bit in depth, so it would probably take a while to teach, though I do have a sorcery that could let me share the knowledge more directly if you would like. Otherwise I'd likely need to give you a rather in-depth teaching about Devonian Calculus and how its done. It probably would be easier to start with something more simple like Obsidian Butterflies or Emerald Countermagic though. Do you have a preference?" I asked, letting him choose what he wanted to do next.

I tilted my head at what he said, making a distinction where there really ought to be none, something here was wrong that much was for sure. "You are making a bit of an error I believe. Sacrifice is not even necessarily something unwilling, it simply is the price one pays for something. The issue with Sorcery is that it demands a high price for it's high reward, rewards that go beyond the mere ability to use Sorcery. It gives you an altered perspective, an insight into the very workings of Creation beyond what any uninitiated person could even dream of. Simply being willing does not preclude it being a sacrifice, people happily offer burnt offerings to the gods when they pray as Sacrifices to gain their attention. People pay money happily to gain the things they desire, a sacrifice of Jade in exchange for other commodities. I sacrifice jade and orichalcum to create truly real territories with my shaping charms. Your definition is far too narrow in my opinion," I said, sighing and shaking my head. It was obvious that he had not truly internalized the lessons of Sorcery, which was likely as a result of being a mere Dabbler at best. "And that price results in power unmatched by any other. Even the Incarnae themselves can only imitate it's power with specialized charms according to their natures in the case of the Circle of Adamant. Not even the Fetich of a Primordial can call upon it's might at the level of which I speak. It is a gift only naturally given to the beings that made Creation and the Solar Exalted," I said, sighing and shaking my head, "I would say that depending on the person they might find such a sacrifice worth it, and I would not judge them for it. I simply do not because of what it chose for me."

"And again, I would neither encourage nor discourage them. It is a decision that is upon them, all I would do is give them the unfiltered facts of my situation and let them make the decision themselves. To do otherwise would be a disservice to them in my opinion. Indeed, the Realm needs those who are willing to push to the limits of Sorcery, for the Circle of Adamant is truly capable of great wonders that serve to improve the realm if they are used properly. As such, I again feel unwilling to do more than let them make an informed decision," I said, sighing and shaking my head at what he was saying. "My opinion is simply that there is no right answer to it overall, it is a deeply personal issue that should be left to the judgement of those who have undertaken it. However, I do believe that those of us who have made the Sacrifice owe it to whoever or whatever was sacrificed to use our powers. To not do so cheapens that sacrifice and makes it in vain in my opinion. It would be like not using an artifact of Soulsteel or Starmetal simply because of distaste for the blood spilled in it's creation, letting it languish and making that blood mean nothing. I am unsure if this applies to your case, but considering your opinion and what you said about finding the price of the Celestial Circle too distasteful I might as well make my point known," I said, sighing at him as I said that. I had heard similar concerns from younger Solars who had made the sacrifice of Adamant and regretted it, and that was my advice to them to help them move past it.

I shrugged at that, "I have no use for accolades about something as simple as memorizing all of the possible combinations in a game like this. I wish to be known for my developments of things that are actually beneficial to the Realm and Creation, for which I did this. I have no reason to dissuade people from doing something that they enjoy, as it is with the case of the Grandmasters of Gateway. The fact that one person managed to solve the game really does mean nothing since it would be impossible to teach another person it without them being on the same level of intellect and knowledge of Lore as me, of which there are scant few." There was really no meaning to it, let alone the fact that letting it be known that I had done such a thing might help others figure out how I made my AIs, and that would make it easier for Bright to use her advantage in fame to try to claim it for her own. I knew it was something she would do, that much was for sure. It was why I didn't connect anything in my personal lands to I AM, I just knew that it was gathering data and sending it to her even if she claimed otherwise. "It's not abandoned, not really at least. I was working on the AI things as well in the same area that I was working on the bridge to here. This one just was far more time sensitive, so I gave it priority. After all, it was impossible to know whether the signal that I found and locked on to in order to get here was permanent or not. I can take it up again at any time really," I said with a shrug before adding, "Besides, while I do care somewhat about being known, enough to make sure she couldn't claim it as her own, I care far more about the fact that I was better than her than it was known that I was better. The rolls of history mean nothing to me, only the heights to which I can perfect my craft."

With a nod and a wave of my hand, I swept away the writing on the wall and rather quickly inscribed a rather simple formula on the wall that described the Essence profile of one of the least complex Sorceries around. It didn't take up much room at all, thanks to it being a mere Emerald Circle spell and a simple one at that with very few moving parts. "How about this? Does it make a bit more sense? Ask about what seems strange to you and I can use that as a starting point. I haven't taught this in quite a long time, so it's hard to remember what is and isn't common knowledge among anyone with even a passing knowledge of sorcery," I said, shrugging a bit at it. It really was hard bringing myself down to the level of average people, hence why I tended to use my charms and sorceries to help facilitate the process so that they could absorb the information regardless.

I sort of tilted my head at what he had said there, it wasn't completely accurate and in some parts was a bit confusing, that much was for sure. "The Sacrifice of Sorcery is not necessarily something that brings you joy, it simply is something that holds meaning to you. Whether that be loves, ideas, grudges, wealth, or any number of things, it must simply be something that forms a part of who you are. It is necessary for that to be the case, as it is the step necessary to break open a part of your very soul so that you can take in what you need to understand and complete Sorcery. This is also the reason why it always happens last," I said, giving a bit of an explanation before adding, "And I would not necessarily agree that it does. To a degree it is objective in the scope, yes, but it also is rather personal as well. If I cared not for my wealth or bodily integrity, then neither would be suitable Sacrifices despite them being able to be used by another who cares about such things. It is a mix, not a minimization I would argue." I was a bit confused on why he looked at it like this, but I supposed it might just be the ramblings of a joy obsessed Vizier of the Cerulean Lute who applied his own bad experience too broadly.

I shrugged a bit at what he said there, not quite agreeing about it. "The reason it tends to be a default at least up until one rubs up against the Initiation of Adamant is that for most, the Sacrifice of Sapphire is worth it. The only time I would counsel anyone to think over it too much is in the case of the Circle of Adamant, as it truly where the Sacrifice becomes a question in my opinion. Some have had bad experiences with it, like you have as I gather, but in general it isn't too much of an issue. The Adamant Sacrifice, however, is beyond that by leaps and bounds. I also don't think that my own feelings on the matter are really relevant to another person, only the facts of the power and the kind of Sacrifice that they would be undertaking," I said with a shrug, it just didn't really feel necessary for me to throw extraneous information into the equation that really didn't matter all that much, such as my emotions. Emotions were personal and ought to be kept that way, at least that was my usual thoughts on the matter.

I tilted my head, "Does that more personal tie, that more immediate bond, not make it even more imperative that you make sure that the sacrifice not be cheapened? If you let your prowess languish, the prowess that their life was given to obtain, then the fact that their life ended for this means nothing, it was a completely meaningless death stripped of any purpose. But if you use the sorcerous powers that their life was given to obtain, does that not mean that their once meaningless death now has been given meaning, given purpose? If I had a choice between a death without meaning and one with it, I would most certainly choose the latter," I said, giving him a shrug as I did so. I didn't really have anything else to say on the matter right now, so if he wasn't convinced by this I would just let the matter lie.

I chuckled a little, "I meant more when I'm working on an artifact or something of that sort. I know colleagues who can work on more than one artifact at once so its a bit of a distinction I make. There's usually a bit of downtime on projects while I'm waiting for exotic supplies, the results of tests, and other things like that. I was being rather specific in regards to not working on the actual crafting of more than one artifact at once with my own hands, though I believe such a thing might be necessary here. So I should probably work on that charm," I said, giving him a bit of a smile as I said that. I shrugged a bit, "I just want to knock her down a peg personally, I don't even care what others think of it. As for why she earned my ire, well the fact she claims to be a better one than I when shes too busy trying to politick and take rulership for herself and spy on everyone with that creation of hers that got turned into essentially a public utility. As a Twilight I have a bit of...private information about her plans that got to me through someone who tried to get me to join, but I turned them down in favor of just continuing my own research since I care nothing about being in charge. I just want to do my research," I said with a shrug. 

I tilt my head a little bit about what he said at questioning why we are looking at equations and say, "Well, I thought we were focusing more on how I could help you more effectively maintain and fix this place as a result of my magic. But either way, the equations are a very important part of it all since all our powers can be rendered this way, charms, sorcery, thaumaturgy, astrology, you name it, theres formulas for it even if Im not too familiar with the astrological ones. The math is important since its a rendition of how it works and how it is completely knowable and analyzable in the strictest sense, unlike that blasted Salina and her wild theories about everything being alive and all that sort of nonsense." I sighed and shook my head, "Well, then lets go with that. It would be useful to compare it to the other two sorcerous countermagics, I shall skip the lesson on the Necromantic ones at least for now." I rather quickly laid out how the other two countermagics worked, and naturally they grew in complexity as they expanded, "A lot of it is that it becomes far more complex as the power increases, so we have to factor in new ways of interactions with different operators and the like. A lot of whats missing from all of these also comes down to the relatively simple nature of the spell itself, even at the adamant level."

I shrugged at what he said, letting the topic of the discussion change. There was really obviously not much I could do besides leave it at that considering it really did seem to come down to irreconcilable philosophical differences in how we looked at the world. That was to be expected to be honest, considering the fact that we had very different outlooks on the world. I did however decide to say one last thing on what he said about the experience thing he mentioned. "Whereas one's own excellence and determining their own path tends to be rather valued in the Deliberative, at least once the information available has been taken into consideration. It might just be my worldview though, as subjective lived experience doesn't seem to be something that should be taken into account when making decisions at least in my opinion," I said with a shrug. It just seemed to be leading down a road where people took those anecdotal fallacies as being worth as much as, if not more than, the objective facts of the matter, and that was not something that I wanted to ever see happen to the world. I might take my objections against it too far, but I would rather have that than the consequences of such a thing.

I raised an eyebrow at what he said he did while he left his projects to run on his own and said, "Flower arranging? Is that really something worthwhile in your line of work? I would imagine that is more something that you would delegate out to some Dragonbloods or something, considering the fact that it's such a rather minor thing." I was a bit confused about that, the priorities on what he should be putting his time into seemed rather wrong at least in that case. I could see the martial arts training somewhat, but this just seemed rather ridiculous at least to me. Why would a Celestial Exalt waste time on such a menial task as putting flowers together in a pretty way, if he asked he could probably get someone like me or the other Twilights to make seeds that grew into plants that were already pre-arranged or something for Heaven's sake. "And I know that she considers me because I've found her damned invention trying to snoop it's way into my networks that I keep it out of. That damned thing is way more insidious than people give it credit for, it's just very good at hiding the spying it does. Unfortunately for it and Bright, I'm good enough to figure it out. I'm more prominent in the strictly Devonian publications rather than the general Deliberative ones anyway, I tend to not work on stuff of any interest to people outside of the deep magitech field. The more general ones are more for show and dumbed down a bit for the general audience," I said, shrugging a bit at what he said. 

"As for what she's up to, well to be quite frank there's a bunch of Twilights trying to oust the Hierophant as the nominal leader of the Deliberative," I said with a shrug, "I don't particularly care either way. I run a Tributary and am largely self-funded, so I don't particularly give a damn about who leads the deliberative, even if they're deep in bed with the Cauldronists. Most of my territory is in or close to the places where the Wyld used to be anyway. I'm a product of the Unfurling Horizons Era as you know, so I worked off the base that my last incarnation had built up and carved a large chunk out of it for myself, so not much would change for me if they got their way. I'd rather they not for now since theres more about Creation proper that hasn't been studied, but well, it's not something I'm too concerned with since it would take a while to figure out how to do it anyway," I said with a shrug. 

I shrugged at what he said. "People believe silly things all the time, it is a shame but I figure people will eventually realize how dull and naive Salina is. Really now, I don't understand why she wants Sorcery to be available to everyone, including mortals. Such a thing is foolish, there is far too much potential for disaster to be giving such short lived beings access to the fundamental powers of the universe. It's like she can't conceive that it would be used for crime or the like," I said, sighing and shaking my head at the infinite dullness of that woman. "The notation from Silur is rather non-controversial, it's more her explanations for it and the mystical nonsense that her followers cook up from it that is the problem. It's just a new set of symbols for more easy ways to express the 'grammar' of the spells so to speak. Mix that in with the math and it makes for a rather easy way to express any effect. It's not completely my own innovation, I must admit, but I was on the forefront along with a few others on the expansion of it to fit charms as well by tying them to the existing Devonian math."