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Post by shinzo on Oct 30, 2017 6:08:52 GMT
I shrug. "Probably because the Bureau of Fate is only one department, and while it's a very influential one, there are just far more gods in positions of power throughout the Bureaucracy than there are Sidereals. We're very limited, and while we own our Bureau, there's so much we can't do without treading on other department's toes. As such, since we need to work within the bureaucratic system that the Unconquered Sun put into place, we're fairly stuck." I shrug. "It probably wouldn't be as big a problem if the Unconquered Sun or the Maidens of Destiny were more available to actually support us...but that's not the case, so we're unfortunately in the position we're in." I roll my eyes. "There's also the fact that gods just don't really like us at the best of times, for the most part. I can't necessarily prove it, but they tend to dislike us out of principle. We use Starmetal when we don't just get along without weapons, armor, or magical adornments, and a lot of times, they knew who made the contribution. It's not all bad, we get what we need and do what we need to do...but the inefficiencies of a corrupt bureaucracy are our lot in life unless someone interferes from outside, and with the Incarnae distracted and the Solars joining in disliking us out of principle, well, there's not exactly much hope of that. We need to keep playing the game, after all...as employees, making full use of our abilities to fix things invites censure." I leave just how absurd that was hanging. I was obviously fed up with the whole thing.
I smirk a bit, but shrug. "I think you're underestimating just how much people, especially in the deliberative, distrust I Am. They never use it. They constantly expect it to rise up against them, as if it is the next part of a cycle of creations rising against their masters. Absolutely absurd, but anything to disparage it and uproot Bright's influence is something that would be latched onto if there was a single shred of evidence." Still, if she didn't want to disparage her over her skill...even if I'd argue that failing to hide something isn't exactly a show of ability, well, that's her prerogative. "I'm not sure I'd agree. Just because journals can have a more general focus doesn't mean they're less valuable. I'm not exactly talking about trash magazines either...Sera's publications certainly draw on a very different clientele...though it's all but required reading in my department." I wait a bit longer than I probably should have. "...That was a joke, in case you didn't realise..."
I shrug at her statement of goings-on. It sounded like skullduggery...but they weren't Night caste, and they weren't infallible. I couldn't help but think this whole attempt to undercut the Heirophant would end up going nowhere, as the Zenith's hold on what truly matters, far more than blackmail or skullduggery, but true, effective articulation and passion. No amount of priming, of preparation, could truly hold sway in the realm of the Solars...they were too temperamental by nature. While they had their ascetics, they too were easy to rile up into loud crusades or diatribes. Holding the thrum of opinion and emotion would dominate things such as logic or preparation...if they wanted proof of that, they need only look to what happened to us.
I raise an eyebrow. "It also raises drastically the amount of potential work they can perform and would thus increase the wealth far more than the amount necessary for peacekeeping. And there are plenty of dragon-blooded who would be more than willing to take up the task of policing if need be...and I highly doubt you're trying to say there's any way essence-capable mortals could accomplish much of anything against them, as long as they took enough of a precaution to initiate to Emerald Circle." At her point about the Yozi, at least, she brings up a valid argument. "You're not wrong. I think you overestimate what they can do in their condition, especially since any mortal with a hint of education or foresight should know just how poorly they were treated under the Primordials and what a great condition they have now...though Exalted can be rather heavy-handed at times..." Mortal happiness, though smaller and shorter, had always been something that meant more than a little to me. It was a rare and often absurd opinion, but there were others who shared it. "Why trust Dragon-Blooded? Why trust Gods? Why trust Sidereals? Why trust anyone who isn't a Solar...or a Twilight, if you get reductive enough? After all...Akuma exist, being filled with mystical power is no safeguard against having weak-wills or a bad case of stupidity?"
As I turn back to the equation, I nod through it. "Alright, fair enough. It just seemed so small and reductive on the Emerald Countermagic diagram that it almost wasn't recognizable as the same clause..." It was frustrating, but it made sense. I crack my neck and begin to write myself, after finishing another clump of fate. "So...if I remember my Silurian notation right..." I mutter, as I begin to work. "This would be Demon of the First Circle...and...." I spend much longer writing out a more complex formula, one that I was less confident but still not unconfident of. "This would be Second Circle."
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Post by Kishar on Oct 30, 2017 23:34:46 GMT
I sighed and shook my head, it was all so grossly inefficient and it made me cringe to even think about it. "I see, so it once again goes back to those blasted games that the Incarnae have been so taken with. Just another thing on the list of things we must do when we get back to Creation, obliterating the Jade Pleasure Dome and breaking whatever the hell they are doing in there so that things once again run as they should," I said with a sigh and a shake of my head, it absolutely bothered me not knowing what in the name of everything holy was going on in there, as nobody would give me even the slightest peek at a dreamstone from there, let alone let me in there. Such things that could ensnare the Incarnae like they seemed to needed to be destroyed, as much as it pained a researcher like me to say. They were too dangerous to be studied, and likely to snare the researcher just as much as they had snared the Incarnae that had been playing them. It would take quite a lot to do, but it was something that absolutely had to be done in my mind without a doubt.
I shrugged, "I don't want to play on pathos to prove something, if I don't have the solid case based entirely on logic that it's spying on more than just me then I would rather keep it to myself to be honest. Relying on playing on people's fears and insecurities is beneath me and beneath any self respecting devonian in my opinion." I left it at that, there wasn't much else to say on the matter after all. It just wouldn't make sense to continue debating when it was likely a moot point anyway. I waved off his assertion that more general public articles had much value, not very convinced by it, "Come now, a piece on some fancy gadget that's all the rave or something like that is pop science at best, and always fails to actually explain the process adequately and often makes it out to be better than it actually is. I'm a scientist, not some sort of pop culture tech giant or something. I shall leave that to younger solars who care about fame, or someone like Sera who just does it out of passion and publishes it for the use of others." I tilted my head at what he said about it being a joke and replied, "I would have imagined it would actually be required reading in the lute, she is quite prolific in her inventions for the kind of thing that you practice there."
I shrugged, "I just don't see the benefit to be quite honest. There are far more effective ways of increasing productivity than giving mortals the keys to the universe, even at the terrestrial level, that ought to belong to the Chosen, the Gods, and our offspring. Especially considering the fact that said keys make them able to access the power of demon summoning. I also think that you underestimate the silver tongues of the Demons. However, a fact that those who are not well versed in sorcery and demon summoning are unaware of is the fact that a Yozi can possess a lower circle demon, even a first circle one, for a short period of time. I find giving them the ability to communicate to mortals in any capacity to be quite the drawback I am unwilling to budge on, no matter if other benefits could be shown. They have far weaker wills than the ones who are using it now." I sighed and shook my head at what he said, "They naturally have stronger wills than the mortals, some fall yes, but it takes far more to tempt them than an ordinary mortal, and compared to the vast throngs of humanity, it is relatively easy to keep some sort of an eye on the Exalted. Gods naturally have as much against the Primordials and Demons as we do, so it would be a rare deity that defects and they would be rather immediately obvious. It simply is a matter of practicality and observability really."
"That's because Emerald countermagic barely does anything to contain the backlash, it simply isn't powerful enough to do so. As such, it was trimmed down to make it more efficient, after all, the lashback effects of a broken emerald circle spell are minor at best," I said, shrugging before adding, "Sapphire just does it since it was easy enough to add in without adding too much to the cost thanks to how the spell works." I looked over what he was writing, and while the First Circle one was spot on, there were a few errors that I quickly fixed in the Second Circle one, "This part about the will breaking was not correct, it was too close to the first circle one, and the part about the reference was a little off since it had a call for species when Second Circles are individuals as well as the name call that it shares with First Circle for summoning particular first circles. Otherwise the base of it was correct for the most part, rather impressive for someone who doesn't seem to do much sorcery really. To be expected of an Elder Sidereal though."
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Post by shinzo on Oct 31, 2017 1:28:44 GMT
"I still think blaming everything on the Games is grossly reductive. After all, the Unconquered Sun hasn't preserved himself from their influence using his perfect Temperance this long just to indulge freely for no reason." Despite the fact that, taking a more long view and free from...whatever it was that happened in the deliberation chamber as we plotted our course through the Prophecies had left me with a much different view on the affair of this Usurpation than I had while under it's influence...the simplest explanation for the Unconquered Sun turning his back on Creation, on his Chosen...was that he saw what we had seen. A great flaw, a great problem with his Chosen...that he might expect to reveal a flaw within himself as a result. "Still, it's not exactly like we can appeal to the Unconquered Sun every time that another Bureau acts pointlessly obstructive even in the best of times. This is hardly a new phenomenon. The Maidens were more responsive and more useful to help keep things moving, but when you need to rely on the Incarnae reminding people to do their jobs, well, it gets 'easier' just to play the game instead of fighting it."
I shrug and accept her opinion. It was bizzare to me, between my own view on how important emotions and feelings are, and how things are most likely to work both in the Bureau and the Deliberative, but I could hardly fault such a view on anything more than it's potential for efficacy, which I already did. "If more people were like you, this world would be a more sensible place. Though, if most people were like you, I can't help but think that things would be a bit too chilly for my taste." I say this with a smile. It wasn't meant to be an insult or anything of the sort. It was a bit of an irreconcilable difference, but nothing too difficult to overcome. I raise an eyebrow. "That's exactly the sort of thing I was talking about. I'm not talking about standard publications meant for mortal or terrestrial consumption. Sticking to Devonian circles is both likely to cause potential breakthroughs to miss you just because they resulted from Salinian or Silurian backgrounds...and is also going to make people more likely to follow those pieces that are marketed to a general audience. Which, considering the jump in popularity those have to begin with between the Working and the notation, is something of a threat to Devonism's continued existence as relevant with those recently Exalted." I laugh. "I know you might think making sales pitches beneath your station, but you do it a disservice if you don't at least pay attention to mixed-research sorcerous publications." I shrug at her response. "Many do. But despite the nicknames, it's hardly our main stock in trade."
I just shrug. "If you think that it will have such a negative effect, that's fine. However, there is something of a problem." I shrug. "I am not sure the Salinian Working can be undone, not without the potential for catastrophic damage to Creation. The effects of an Adamant Circle Countermagic on something that spans Creation is rather...well, I do think the immediate potential for damage outweighs the potential for prevented damage in the future, even accepting your points as true." I do the mental math in my head as I scout for another tear, and sigh as this one's even worse. "This is work spiders should be doing..." Grumbling to myself, I distract myself by continuing my point. "I just think that, at this point, the better way would be to increase mortal education on the matter, as well as continue to monitor the comings and goings of the denizens of Malfeas." I shrug. "I think it's frankly absurd for mortals to be summoning demons in the first place. Without the arrangements from our victory over the Primordials, most mortals who summon demons are likely assigning themselves a death sentence." I just sigh at her last point. "Keep an eye on the Exalted? Are you speaking sense? Who is supposed to watch the watchers? There's no one above the Solar Exalted...especially with the Incarnae out of the picture." It was absurd. Why did she think this Usurpation was happening in the first place. "I'm going to assume you mean once a more appropriate measure of policing for such actions is in place, otherwise I am not sure we can be in agreement on that. Discounting, obviously, the multitude of Terrestrials that, being unemployed, are no longer having an eye placed on them at all."
I nod as she explains my mistakes with the notation. "I'm sorry. I'll confess, most of my experience with Sorcery has been of the Salinian bent. It's the sort of mysticism that is closer to the practice of the Sidereal arts. So most of what I know on this is through osmosis." Still...the fact that I had that much time to know that was obviously present...I just didn't care. Sorcery was a waste for me, and even if it wasn't...I wouldn't touch it. "Still, the theory isn't too difficult to grasp...it's not the easiest by any means, but it has something resembling a logical progression." I take a break from unraveling fate to fix up my mistakes taking in her advice, and revise my answer. "Am I getting warmer or colder?"
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Post by Kishar on Oct 31, 2017 3:50:04 GMT
I shrugged at what he said, it didn't seem like an insult so there was no need to take it as one, indeed I would much prefer a world like that. "Perhaps, but to me it seems like a far more ideal one. So many things are caused by emotion usurping the place of reason and causing people to make terrible decisions or ignore things in front of them. A weakness that is unfortunately endemic to creation, it seems," I said with a sigh and a shake of my head. I assumed that since he was from a bureau that was directly in charge of things like this he would have a much different opinion of such things than someone such as myself, a rational scientist who sought the logical results of her studies. Though what he said next confused me more than a little, "Breakthroughs from the Salinians? That sounds like quite the amusing proposition to say the very least. I at least skim the Silurian journals to see new notational theories and spell variations, but again they seem too focused on those sorts of things rather than driving the knowledge we have even further." I shrugged at the consequences of such a thing, "And then Devonian studies will come back to the forefront after this. Besides, it will never really fade since magitech is the backbone on which everything turns in our world, really. And that stems from Devonian theory so heavily that it would be extremely hard for anyone to create it with the other schools of thought there are out there."
I sigh, obviously dismayed. "Yes, I agree that such a thing is an issue, which is why I am rather vexed that it even got passed in the first place. It would take more than just a casting of Adamant Countermagic to get rid of it as well, it is far too firmly rooted. I would propose that a similar working be done, but to prevent those without the authorization of the Exalted or the Gods from being able to take advantage of such things. Either that, or we heavily limit and scour the world of Thaumaturgy and drugs that would allow a mortal to become aware of their Essence and awaken it," I said, shaking my head as I listed the main ways to combat the insanity that was the Salinian Working, why Devon had ever handed Sperimen over to her was a mystery to me to say the absolute least. Perhaps it was a result of whatever had been affecting the Exalted that I learned about from Shinzo's experiences. I cock my head as he says that and say, "Well, each other of course? I'm talking about watching each other to ensure that it doesn't seem that we are under the influences of the Yozi. Why would we not watch each other for such things? I do agree that more strict controls on such things is necessary, as well as regular testing for demonic taint on those known to know such spells."
I huffed a little bit at what he said, obviously not too impressed by the fact that he mostly was familiar with Salinian sorcery. "Well then, I am glad I caught you before you went and ruined yourself by going too deep into Salinian sorcery. Its a bunch of hogwash, really. At least the deep Silurians are up front about it not being scientific, the Salinians pretend to be scientists but are frankly just pseudosceintific quacks. I suppose it cannot be helped though, what can I expect out of a school of sorcery founded by a Zenith rather than a Twilight after all," I said, letting my biases show heavily there. "Of course it does, logic forms the very basis for all of Devonian math and science, so once you get used to it, it is highly intuitive. "Warmer, though you need to refactor the motonic variables and adjust for the changed flows. Otherwise you are pretty much on the right track."
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Post by shinzo on Oct 31, 2017 5:47:03 GMT
I raise an eyebrow at her point on making terrible decisions or ignoring things in front of them. "And...you wouldn't say that, despite trying to maintain such a cool and logical way of pursuing things, you haven't made terrible decisions or ignored things in front of you? I don't think that's going to be what changes that...I think that's more just the nature of having different, limited viewpoints on matters." I just shrug at her dismissal. "The Working, while controversial, was certainly one of the more overarching and powerful works of sorcery I can recall, and changed the way sorcery interacts with the world." I just smile. "While it's easy to get lost in the mysticism and allegory, it is very much a branch of sorcery that has undoubtedly delivered profound changes in the way the art is looked at." At her supposition on what is necessary for magitech, I just shrug. "I never really focused on that, though I really should put the time into learning it. From what I know, however, it's no more tied to Devonism than sorcery in general is...and far more tied to mundane smithing or jewelcrafting."
I hum as she proposes such an endeavor...and can't say it sits right with me. "It's just...I don't know. The limiting of Sorcery is a good thing, but the ever-increasing consolidation of power within the Deliberative was one of the things that was the most convincing of the Bronze Faction's points...and one I was hoping would be relatively easy to convince once proper dialogue had been opened." While it was of such a minor concern on both sides, it didn't truly matter, but there was always the question of whether the slope became slippery... "It's not anything to worrisome...on either side, so the insistence on the point is a bit odd. I don't mind personally, but it seems that creating another Working would both be of exceptional expense compared to simply adjusting to the fact that Sorcery can be available to those that have the Essence for it." I shake my head at her point. "That's just it, though. You haven't been a product of Deliberative policy...but your status as a Tributary should make that even more apparent. It's far, far too easy to hide things like that...and if you have a suspicion without evidence that could only be gathered from them and their work, what are you going to do? Simply accuse them of malfeasance without cause? And even Solars with nothing to hide...do you really think they'll broach such invasions of privacy? Ludicrous, unless things change drastically." I raise an eyebrow. "You seem very nervous about the threat that the Jailed Ones pose...other veterans of the Aftershock...and even the Primordial War don't show that sort of aversion." I leave the observation at that, curious to see how she'd take it, and respond.
I raise an eyebrow at her vitriol. "Well, tell me how you really feel." Smiling, I just shrug. "Be that as it may, I must confess that I've never particularly described myself as a scientist, nor do I particularly care overmuch about whether or not sorcery should be seen as it. Do I believe that Sorcery is likely empirical? Yes. Do I think the 'Creation is Alive' is more of a thought experiment than anything resembling reality? Yes. However...so much of what I do as a martial artist relies on concepts that are 'alive' but aren't, it seems a natural fit." My smile widens into a smirk. "However, matters of science and discovery of our world fascinate me as well...really, the difference between Devonism and Salinianism seems so drastically small that it's no big surprise Devon appointed Salina. Salinia simply seemed to posit a theory that hasn't been disproven...and many outside of the school would consider proven, even if I find the actual proof to be lacking in key areas." The way I rambled on about the subject...it was like I was newly Exalted. Of course, what could be talked about at that time was entirely different...but perhaps it was something to do with what Kishar suggested. I couldn't use Sorcery...but neither could I fully put it out of my head.
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Post by Kishar on Nov 1, 2017 4:41:49 GMT
I shrugged at him as I said, "Weakness that I admit that I still have. Even the Solar Exalted have moments of weakness, after all. Just because the implementation that I bring to the table is not perfect, that does not mean that the ideal isn't preferable nor does it mean that my implementation's issues are something inherent in the system." That was all I would say on the matter really, I admitted that at times I let my emotions get the best of me, but such failures did not dispute my own point that rationality coming first ought to be an ideal as it would prevent such things so long as it was strictly adhered to. I shrugged at what he said about about magitech and replied, "You would be mistaken, it was formed off of Devonian theories of Essence, after all, it would be hard to reproduce Sorcerous effects and the like with such things if you could not precisely measure and reproduce the ways in which Essence flows and resonates, using materials to cause those things instead of pure will or an Exaltation mixed with skills." I sighed and shook my head and added, "Although it would be hard to expect someone without much knowledge of sorcery and magitech, let alone Devonian theory to know such a thing. It's not impossible to make magitech without being a Devonian, but Devonian theory forms the backbone for the entire field of Magitech. It might be possible to produce similar things with another field but...it would look rather different and need to be built from the ground up, that much is for sure."
I shrugged, "I don't mind it being open to the Exalted in general, so long as monitoring is set up to help prevent young and foolish people from becoming Akuma, I just do not believe it is a tool that should be available to the throngs of mortals and created races not intended to have it. It causes far too many problems for me to be any supporter of leaving it as it is. Expense is an illusion to a united Deliberative, to be quite frank. I have enough money to finance the building of a Directional Titan, and the Deliberative has several members who have access to the same sorts of funds as I do. And the economy among Celestial Exalts rarely falls upon such currencies anyway, its far more turned by favors and artifacts we create for each other." I shrugged at what he mentioned in regards to tributaries and said, "The only reason I really stay as a Tributary has to do with the obnoxious bureaucratic red tape on issues that do not really matter, the issue of I AM access being a fundamental right to mortals, and having a much easier time restricting information on Demons in my domain. Should such things be no longer a burden, I would be the first person to advocate for tributaries to be dissolved. They present far too much of a danger should our theory be correct on what is causing our madness." As for his last point..."Well, let us just say that my stay in the Time of Cascading Years had me deal quite a bit with the potential for their escape. I wish to not have to deal with that again."
I looked at him aghast at the very notion that the two could ever be compared before rubbing my temples as I sighed. "I shall chock that up to your relative ignorance on the topic, but I shall have you know that they are nothing alike. Creation having a mind of it's own beyond Gaia? Preposterous. Essence predates Creation, it is the Pure Chaos of the Wyld. Creation simply gives it more complex forms than the basic rules of the Shinma based on how the Primordials created it. Tying it too closely to Creation as she does is preposterous," I said, with another sigh and a shake of my head as I just could not fathom why anyone would believe in that absolute and utter hogwash. It boggled my mind every Sol damned time somebody brought it up.
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Post by shinzo on Nov 1, 2017 5:52:05 GMT
I roll my eyebrows. "Oh please. Kishar, don't give me that." I sigh and shake my head. Of course she would go and blame her emotions on the failings she had made. Of course, not on the problems of an overfocus on rationalism and denial of that which makes people alive. "Oh but that is indeed what I'm suggesting. After all, a purely rational approach fails often too, since it denies the element of life. We are not rational beings, oh we can try to be, but to deny what we are is, well, irrational." I shrug. "Morality is likely to remain a better standard than rationality, not only because of that but also because what is rational is too prone to shift based on information. It can be too inconstant, too direct, too ruthless for it to be the way that beings with our power should always seek to conduct ourselves."
As to her opinion on magitech, I raise an eyebrow. "Of course the study of magitech owes Devonism a great deal for it's in-depth research of motonic physics, but I do think you overstate just how intrinsic it is. While I can't exactly make any of it myself...though I can't help but feel I'd be a quick study at it, I know enough about it to say that I feel your Absorbtion might just be making it difficult to see how exposure to sorcerers that use it and create with it in different ways and styles has adjusted it, and how it will continue to evolve." I shrug. "It will likely always be the school with the deepest connection to the craft, but I see no evidence that it is tied in any meaningful way beyond discoveries that Devonism has pioneered that have been adapted to any meaningful study of Sorcery in the first place.
I sigh and shrug. "Well, it's true that you have the funds...I mean, I have similar amounts of cash and ambrosia lying around. It's not something I tend to think about. Still, your very point shows the flaw. Among the Exalted, currency doesn't hold as much sway as it might. Everything comes down to favors and alliances...and Salinian sorcerers, frankly, are among the most numerous and only growing as long as the Working remains in effect." I didn't want to immediately jump into politics when we were talking about Sorcery, but it was hard not to in a situation like this, where she was bringing it up in turn. "As for your advocation for the removal of tributaries...don't you think that's a bit heavy-handed? That tributaries should be abolished just as soon as I don't have a need to keep reaping their benefits? I can't and won't ever defend beauracratic red tape...but if it was really a matter of such concern to you, don't you think that such a concern should outweigh minor inconveniences like that?" I smile as she explains it, and nods. "Well then. That's a story I'd love to hear sometime...My own experience is what led to me learning Charcoal March of Spiders, but it doesn't sound anywhere near as exciting as yours."
I raise an eyebrow. She was certainly quick to have me be discounted as ignorant. "Unlikely? Perhaps. Unproven? I would agree. Preposterous? I woudln't say that, and unlike most negatives, it shouldn't be impossible to prove, any more than it would be to prove an unmodified mortal cannot fly." I shrug. "They have not satisfied their burden of proof enough for me to think of it as any more than an amusing thought experiment, but as that, it is quite the interesting one." I smile. "Essence predates Creation...but the flows of Essence that Creation possesses is something unique to Creation. Essence can be molded into many different structures...it forms every iota of Creation as we know it, and Creation flows differently in Creation than it does elsewhere." I laugh. "And it would not be the only Primordial creation to think, if it did."
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Post by Kishar on Nov 1, 2017 7:20:00 GMT
I sighed and shook my head, "You mistake what is for what ought to be and what could be, Shinzo. People are only irrational beings because they are weak and give in to the powerful emotions that rule them. Mortals are forgivable to an extent, they do not have the Will that the Exalted to, and the Terrestrials to a smaller extent as they do not match the Celestial Exalted. Rationality only shifts based on information because we do not have perfect information, the way in which we interpret that information, the basic logic of existence, is constant." As to his point about morality, I once again sighed and shook my head, "And by what would you measure morality by? The Incarnae have revealed their fallibility, and even before the Games, it was clear that the Unconquered Sun was not perfect in this regard. One only need to look at the story of Prince Laashe to know that. So then, what source that is more reliable than Logic would you point to as a basis for our morality?" Nothing really seemed to stand out to me at least, so all I could really do was see if he had something to add there that I may have missed. We had different experiences, so naturally he would likely come to a different conclusion than I would.
I shrugged at what he said, "Maybe, maybe not. In general the other two main schools haven't been around long enough to be a really big influence on it. The only similar phenomenon that is younger than those two is the black art of Necromancy. I doubt that such things could have too much of an impact on Magitech when they are not even a thousand years old." Perhaps it was my age, but such young concepts could not possibly have influenced such a practice in any meaningful way when they were that young, especially with how rooted in Devonian science magitech was. Especially those damned Salinians with their absurd pseudoscience. I shall always question the sanity of Devon himself in regards to the passing on of Sperimen to Salina nad the destruction of his own personal works. Luckily for me, I had memorized more than a few of them and was able to reproduce them. Others had done the same so not terribly much had been lost in his destruction of his own copies.
I sighed and shook my head, "And that is a problem that is very much in need of a fix. Perhaps the discovery that I made would be enough to convince them that Salina is just a quack that should never have been given any authority in the spaces traditionally reserved for the Twilights. An Exalt should stick to what they are good at, and Salina really ought to stick to her nature and her leadership instead of trying to force her view of the mind and nature onto the practice of Sorcery. Damned Zeniths, thinking they are the leaders of everyone and everything at times," I said with an exasperated sigh. "Tributaries have been and always will be a stopgap measure to deal with those who do not agree with the laws as they are. If the reasons for those disagreements are addressed, either via fixing or accounting for whatever this strange phenomenon is or by changing the legal codes to address these issues that they have, then they would be utterly unnecessary, and as such could be easily abolished making everything that much easier." I said with a shrug. That was how they always seemed to me, even as someone who was the ruler of one. "To make a long story short, it involves the Ebon Dragon being broken out of prison by a woman that he took as his wife. It is unclear to me even now what kind of being she was, but she was definitely of Creation and not a Celestial. Any more than that would take a very long time to explain and likely some alcohol," I said with a sigh and a shake of my head.
"I would tend to disagree. Yes, primordial creations can and do think. However, the main issue with this is that the Fair Folk have their own magicks that cannot be explained by the theory put forth. Not only that, but the same applies to the Primordials themselves, as they also predate Creation and now live separately from it. If it cannot account for all forms of magic like that, then I tend to discount it. Devonian Thought mainly does focus on the rules pertaining to Creation, but those are based on the laws of the Shinma that underly the universe and it shows in our math that it is built up off of that. Fair Folk charms and magics simply just run mostly on those rules and drop their own thought patterns and borrowed concepts of Creation on top of them to make them work. Same with the Primordials, but they apply their own concepts to them," I said, sighing and shaking my head. Without any way to explain those phenomena, Salinian thought was dead in the water.
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Post by shinzo on Nov 2, 2017 5:48:01 GMT
"I don't think I'm mistaken about that at all," I reply easily. "I think that the strength of our emotions is a testament to what makes us who we are, and trying to reject them and replace them with something far less innate to our existence as an adherence to pure logic is flawed in it's theory as well as it's practice." It just didn't make sense. We were all emotional creatures, and while reason and logic might provide compelling arguments and theories for how we should go about accomplishing things, it didn't and couldn't adequately answer the why. It didn't speak to the underlying passions and emotions that gave us our strength and allowed us to truly reach our apex. As for her question on morality, well, that was trickier. "In spite of your suppositions, I would counter that the Unconquered Sun is indeed a pillar of morality to be emulated. Even though even He proved infallible in regards to the Games...the fact that doing so likely sundered his Aegis merely shows that a pillar of morality can still fall short." I shrug. "Rather than simply default to him, though, I would adopt a "do as I should, not as I do" approach. After all...while the Unconquered Sun -can- fall short, such actions diminish him, and show that while he can defy his own morality, he does so without countermanding that morality's existence." That was simple enough to me, and honestly easier to quantify than "logic" and "reason," words that could all too easily be perverted to "whatever I feel is right."
I shrug. "Whether or not you doubt it doesn't answer the question...but since I'm not as aware as I'd like to be, I'll leave it at that. However, at a base level, I would imagine silurian notation does and continues to make your very field much easier, your AI research. Furthermore, I would also posit that the ability for Silurian notation to 'jump' around and create more arbitrary formations, would allow AI operating within that framework to more readily reach the sorts of abstractions and leaps of logic that the natural mind can." If she disagreed, I would default, but I couldn't help but see potential that her bullheadedness was squandering...if I cared about sorcery at all, I almost certainly wouldn't go down an Absorbtion. If Kishar was any indication...and my experiences with others didn't disprove it, taking an Absorbtion robbed one of a great deal of flexibility.
I laugh. "Oh come now. Everyone is different, and it's all but assured that Salina's knowledge of the occult is of a degree that it can at least challenge your own. And I can't help but detect a small amount of bias there as well...weren't we just talking about how Twilights were attempting to wrest leadership in the Deliberative away from the Zenith caste? I think that keeping people's focuses and abilities narrowed only serves to place undue limits on beings that, frankly, shouldn't have them." Again, I need to draw her back to her own words, lest she get carried away. Truly, a Vizier's work was never done. "Isn't that just assuming that once -your- concerns are satisfied, that everyone else's would be? Or are you saying that other people's concerns about how their lands are ruled aren't good enough to allow them to make tributaries for themselves? At what point would it be alright to abolish them, other than to make their entire existence irrelevant by managing to do the impossible, and getting 300 Solars to agree on how Creation should operate?"
I blink at what she says about her time in the Cascading Years. "That is about the most absurd thing I've ever heard...and that's saying a lot." I sigh and shake my head. "Though, if it helps, my own time involved me traveling across a spider's web to a strange, alternate universe to itself...similar to Malfeas and yet not. A sickly, dying world where Exalted served Mortal, if you could believe it." It was absurd, and yet, it had reminded me about what I had lost...rather fitting, really.
I tilt my head. "Why not? What Fair Folk do have nothing to do with what Salinians practice. They believe that Essence is how Creation thinks, and while that's absurd, it doesn't mean that the Essence in the Wyld can't operate differently. In fact, the Fair Folk's magic tends to be distinct enough that it's rather easy to dismiss that by saying it's an entirely different field altogether than Creation sorcery." She seemed to be in demand for a unifying theory, when Salinians needed none and desired none. "Be that as it may, it seems odd that I am constantly called on to defend something I don't believe while you attack it where no one can provide a proper defense of the material. While I'm most up to date on Salinism considering it's popularity on the people I tend to interact with, it's my least favorite conceptually of the three different schools that I tend to hear about."
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Post by Kishar on Nov 3, 2017 0:41:49 GMT
I sighed and shook my head, it seemed that he did not understand the nuance of what I happened to be saying, which was unfortunate but I supposed I could clear up what I had said. "There is a difference between rejecting our emotions and making sure they are subjugated to our Reason, Shinzo. It is fine to feel things and have emotions, sure. But to act on them when it would go against reason is the reason why bad things occur. Vice stems from the appetites and emotions that override our reason and make us act against that which is right," I said, trying to draw out the subtleties of what I had been saying. I decided to also tie in the point that he made to what I was saying and replied to it with that in mind. "Then you would argue the four virtues are the base of Morality, and rather than accepting the dictates of what embodies it or emulating him, we should act like what he 'should be'? If so, then I believe Morality reduces down to cold, hard Logic. After all, the Virtues are something that are directly able to be studied and understood, they are fundamental parts of our universe. Provided such information is available to a person, it stands to reason that it would be out of control emotion, and not reason, that would drive a person to violate such things, and thus reinforces my point about the importance of putting reason above emotion," I said, smirking a little bit at being able to use his own suggestion to drive a wedge through his earlier argument.
I shrugged at what he said and replied, "Sure, again I don't have any issue with the notation of it, nor do I have a problem with the way it more closely emulate's human thought, though I have found it simply just doesn't work for a magitech framework AI. I tried implementing such a thing a while ago, and it just didn't work. However, trying to emulate those random leaps of logic is something that I have been working on, specifically by having a double layered consciousness to the AI, as it is likely these leaps of logic in the mind are as a result of the conscious mind being informed by the unconscious one. With that in mind, it might work well to have a similar system in an AI running logic in similar ways. It just doesn't work in a regular magitech foundation to try to implement their principles directly." That was all there was to it, really. If it didn't work it simply didn't work, and I was very aware that it hadn't.
I couldn't help but find myself laughing at the absurdity of his statement that Salina could scratch my occult knowledge, bending over a little bit and holding my stomach for a second before recovering. "I underestimated your sense of humor, Shinzo. Little miss utopia has barely been around a millennium, theres no way her knowledge matches my own, she hasn't even reached the pinnacle of essence that would allow such a thing," I said, sighing and shaking my head while I smirked. "Besides, the very fact that she insists on that annoying little feast just shows she probably hasn't reached nearly my level yet in regards to the occult, after all, she would know it was totally in vain if she had. A dedicated and powerful sorcerer can easily summon a third circle demon outside of Calibration after all, the main reason I would assume nobody has called her on it is that it keeps the younger, less powerful Solars from trying to summon them and flubbing the ritual, letting a third circle demon get loose," I said, sighing and shaking my head as I did so, "If you would like a demonstration, I might be able to still do it here now that this place follows Creation physics. I might do it later anyway with a smaller demon to see if this place is connected to Malfeas though, that might be useful to know."
"I'm assuming that the issues either come from things that can be easily fixed, or are irrational things that are caused by the curse. With enough work, both can be eliminated and thus removing the problem," I said, waving my hand as if I was not even concerned about it, "If there are any other issues that you think might be the cause of Solars wanting tributaries that are not covered under those two, and are not directly malefic and thus shouldn't be allowed, please do tell. I would be interested to hear what you think might go against that." I was fairly certain there wasn't any concerns that wouldn't fall into those categories, but he had just surprised me earlier so I couldn't put it past him to do it yet again. "You're telling me though about the insanity of such a thing, and that does sound like quite the adventure as well. We will have to swap stories sometime when we have more downtime and the Genesis labs have created my imitation yu-shan grapes so that we can enjoy some celestial wine. And before you go and complain, yes I did purchase what was probably an illegal sample of the stuff in the past, no I do not know if it actually was and nor do I care. The gods are all too stupidly picky with their stuff after all," I said with a shrug, I really could not give a damn about their wanting to monopolize such things.
I waved my hand back and forth, "Except that the fair folk can and do use their charms which predate creation to influence it, the same can be said of the Primordials as well. So unless they defend it with a silurian approach for those and decide to split them into two, then it does not explain it. Furthermore, it also fails to explain why our sorcery and our charms work in the Wyld or other realms if there is no shared fundament to be described. And if there is a shared fundament, then it makes more sense to define it from there than from a creation-centric approach, and thus it comes back to Devonian thought being the most broad in scope and having the most explanatory power, and as such it becomes the best field to apply to the situation." As for his last point I could only shrug as well, "Only you and me are here that have any idea about the science of Sorcery. So even if it is odd, that is only because its the only way it can be done right now. I would be glad to debate the topic with a silly Salinian if there were one here."
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Post by shinzo on Nov 3, 2017 2:05:21 GMT
I roll my eyes. "That argument comes back to the problem I have with logic as the first and foremost guide to actions. The fact that it's so difficult to pin down and define. After all...there's no reason that rational actions should be constrained by the Virtues...and in fact, many times that it's more expedient to ignore them. As a simple example, Compassion would dictate that in the face of honest recalcitrance, even abhorrent crimes should be forgiven. It also would demand that surrender be accepted even with reasonable likelihood that it will turn out to be a betrayal. It would even go so far as to abolish the death penalty in general...not to mention the creation of Soulsteel. Temperance would be a great hardship to the way Sidereals and Lunars often operate, through the use of deliberate, if trivial, deception. These are, in many, many cases, irrational decisions to take based on my current understanding of the term." I shrug. "Of course, an informed logic that bends itself to fit the constraints of morality is acceptable...but then, is it really acting with logic at it's base?" I shake my head "Of course not. The Virtues spring from our emotions, our deepest feelings and desires, and are part of everyone even if the Unconquered Sun embodies them most stringently. Taken strictly, it is out of control emotion that -defines- them, and logic is, as you state, in opposition to out of control emotion." I was more than ready for that riposte of hers. Really, this was why someone shouldn't engage in an argument while lacking the necessary background for it. She was very smart...but she was blind to so much based on her sheer stubbornness.
I raise an eyebrow. I wasn't exactly inclined to accept out of hand that it just 'didn't work.' After all, there was no reason it shouldn't. Instead, I was much more inclined to believe that she didn't apply it with the same deftness and skill a Silurian sorcerer versed in magitech would. Still, I had no reason to voice those concerns. After all, it couldn't be proven...there was no way I'd bother to learn enough about Sorcery to even take an Absorbtion, let alone be willing to shackle myself to one view like she did. The results of the Devonian absorbtion made me want to steer well clear of any of that, thank you very much.
I raise an eyebrow, before shrugging. "Well, that might be the case. I don't honestly know. I haven't had the privilege of talking to miss Salina, and merely go off what I've heard from just about everyone that I've talked to regarding her. That being, she's a prodigy and a genius, that she fundamentally reshaped thinking about sorcery, and of course that Devon renounced Devonism for Salinism. I mostly just assumed someone capable of such feats would logically be more in touch with her essence and not a stripling." I raise an eyebrow. "Of course they can, in a way that we are still trying to put together. We know it has to do with The Time is Now, but beyond that..." I take a breath. "In any event, it's just as likely that, abhorring demons as Salina does, that she simply eschewed The Time is Now. After all, if she thinks so utterly that the mere presence of demons harms Creation, something I have trouble disagreeing with, she wouldn't care to develop a charm that makes it easier to summon them. Not when she, and most people in general, should have better things to be doing." My eye twitches just a bit when she offers a demonstration. "No, and I'd greatly rather you didn't. Summoning anything on that level would be absolutely destabilizing to the region's fate just by appearing..." I sigh and shake my head.
I raise an eyebrow. "Honest disagreement? There are going to be as many reasons why Solars might not unanimously agree on the laws that should govern Creation as stars in the sky." I shrug. "Suppose that there is a movement that suggests many of what you refer to as 'red tape' are actually proper restraints on the development of large-scale magitech? The Bureau of Destiny would certainly support such a proposition, after all. If that were to be properly voted and implemented...would you just accept it? Or would you not wish you could declare yourself a tributary in order to get around it?" I just laugh as she thinks I'd have a complaint with that. "Anyone who's anyone in Yu-Shan has illegal stockpiles of the stuff. It's a law that might as well not exist. While I'd normally abstain based purely on potential ramifications, sealing arrangements with other bureaus with a drink is so integral that it's difficult to get around hospitality."
I just shrug. "I would merely repeat that Salinian thought, as it was explained to me, simply posits that Essence, as in, the particle, flows within Creation according to the thoughts of Creation. It doesn't bother to talk about what Essence does outside of Creation because it's entirely irrelevant to what Salinism seeks to see. It is a "narrow" field. I woudln't believe that any of them would deny that essence predates Creation, or that it is able to flow through us outside of Creation...but nor would they care about that since their research is on the fundamental existence of Creation, rather than on Essence." I raise my hands. "Any more than that I wouldn't care to venture since, again, I'm not Salinian."
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Post by Kishar on Nov 3, 2017 2:49:12 GMT
I shrugged at what he said, "Fair enough, then I would argue that the virtues themselves aren't a good basis for morality, at least their extremes are not. It goes against our instincts for one to say that someone would be wrong for someone to be forced to accept an honest repentance for horrific crimes. In that case, then again it strikes a hole in the argument that emotions should be allowed to override reason, after all, if they flow from raw uncontrolled emotion as you posit then they are simply an aspect of creation that is able to be understood via logic since they were built into the very fundament of Creation by the Primordials. So then, I would argue since following their epitome would lead us astray from our moral instincts, then we would need to find something else to use as a basis." That was all I really had to say on the topic, I was not someone who really was familiar with deep morality, after all, I found a lot of it to be sentimental nonsense at least in the case of Compassion especially. It left people too weak to do what had to be done to make the world progress, and that was something I could not abide as a Twilight.
"Then you are truly blessed, Shinzo. The woman is a bleeding heart who believes far too much in the goodness of the individual person, she does not know war and conflict, nor does she know the cruelty of humans. Perhaps this little plot of your kind will be enough to snap her out of her overly optimistic idealism," I said, obviously not too impressed with her philosophy. It was hogwash, humans were fundamentally good? Authority and hierarchy should not be a thing? It was blasphemy against the natural order and the creation-ruling mandate, let alone the fact that if it were to occur it would break apart the Order Conferring Trade Pattern. "I figure she just used her skill with empty words that she has by virtue of being a Zenith, and the recent revelations about this curse and the degeneration of elder solars just makes me think that Devon had gone insane or senile due to it, and as a result was easy prey for such things," I said with a shrug. I raise an eyebrow at him and say, "It just is that charm, Shinzo. When you reach a certain level of mastery over your Essence, the abilities of the charm naturally grow. I probably would be crucified by my fellows for saying that but...well let's just say I could give a damn right about now. I figure anyone who would care enough to not be willing to submit to a bit of scrutiny for summoning large demons has too much to hide in my opinion." I shrugged at the point about them hurting Creation, "And I would disagree, nothing about their presence is any more disrupting of the natural order than any being of Essence of that level. Though I will refrain from it now since it might be a problem for your job and I wouldn't want to give you unnecessary work."
"Naturally if they could provide proper evidence for it and give a cost-benefit analysis for it in detail, I would abide by it. My issue is that, again, nobody has done that and they expect us to abide by it anyway for no good reason," I said with a shrug before adding, "I just do not believe that such things are issues since again, nobody has bothered to delve into the motonics of it and instead of doing so and searching for a possible workaround to see if it is possible, they go straight to banning it. That feels like laziness rather than an actual issue to me." That was the core of the problem in my opinion, people who didn't want to do the work to show the way it was effective everything so that we could work around it but still didn't want to do the work of cleaning up after these things were deciding to just ban it instead. That just sat with me wrong. "I suppose that makes sense. I don't deal enough with Yu-Shan for me to be too aware of how the workings actually go on there beyond the actual laws. It's just too full of backroom deals and political garbage for my taste," I said with a shrug.
"Well then, I suppose that's where this particular conversation ends. I just feel that going with a field that has less explanatory power than one that has a greater one feels silly," I said with a shrug before asking, "So then, I have a question for you, how's the progress on reworking the fate of this area coming? I'm curious to see how large the effects are on it, and judging it from the time and work it takes you to do it seems like a decent enough place to start."
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Post by shinzo on Nov 3, 2017 3:27:11 GMT
I shrug. "No more than being too moral an individual brings friction to other people. Adherence to strict moral codes is rarely easy, and yet, it is tied to our strength in a key way that can't simply be ignored. The fact that we can tap into their power to aid us in pivotal moments is a key example of that." I sigh and shake my head. "I disagree that it goes against our moral instincts. In fact, the death penalty is more often used due to the ease of execution or the requirement for soulsteel than any genuine moral outrage. If one shows signs of genuine reformation, it is more in our nature to give them that second chance, so long as they have not abused the privilege." I just shrug. "Perhaps that might be so. But it is the best example as I have seen, and certainly fits better than a 'solution' where our desires and passions are enchained to logic." The very idea was absurd to me. It was denying joy, something that was anathema to the Serenity caste.
I raise an eyebrow at her scathing review of the founder of the Salinian school, and laugh. "Well, doesn't she just sound like the nicest person ever." Really, after dealing with what I had, all the cynicism of the Bronzes and the cruel truths of the world, a bit of optimism sounded nice. "Heaven forbid whoever ends up inheriting Ushun's Exaltation and her own become friends, I think the levels of saccharine in the world would become enough to engrain permanent toothache into the Shinma." I just laugh. "I think the fact that we were all laboring under the hint of madness might just be an argument in her favor, however." I tease at her, wondering just how annoyed a reaction it would provoke. "Of course, you don't think he could have an honest change of heart, could you? And it does hurt me to hear you call social nicety 'empty words.' If a powerful elder Solar doesn't want to be shifted or doesn't agree, it is all but impossible to shift barring a very deft hand indeed."
I grow slightly more somber. "Perhaps a more cogent explanation could be this. It is merely a proposal, but hear me out. Perhaps Devon discovered what we have, and had found a way to prove it's existence. But perhaps he couldn't stick by his empiricism in the face of such a revalation, and turned to someone who preached...well, let's say 'less empiricist' to be generous. Wouldn't you say that might fit the way things arranged themselves well, especially considering his...violent reaction?" It was little better than gossip, but it did have more than a bit of relevance. "As one of the older and more influential Solars in his company, I don't suppose you had any chance to communicate with him near that occassion? Any correspondence that might shine light, with that little supposition taken into account? Any potential leads?" I was casting about, but if there was an answer, that could help tremendously, if only to prove that it was there, and with proper procedure, observable. When she talks to me about what would be damaging to fate, I just sigh. "The actions of anyone outside fate can cause a great deal of trouble. The actions of a very high essence individual outside fate, much more so." Still, the fact that she wasn't going to do that was a relief.
I roll my eyes. "That evidence might be judged too potentially damaging or destructive to gather, however. After all, gathering that sort of cost-benefit analysis would obviously strain the Loom a great deal. After all, putting effort into discovering a workaround inevitably involves performing the damaging activity many times in trial and error fashion, at the end of the day. And while you might not agree with it, it's not something that would be incomprehensible to have occur. So I'll repeat the question. Would you abide by it, or would you want a tributary so you could ignore it?" I roll my eyes. "This is, reminding you, not even a ban. It's merely, as you described earlier, 'red tape' meant to ensure that experiments are accounted for and safe...though banning might also be a reasonable position, if one I wouldn't be as eager to take up." I sigh. "And you're not wrong about it...It all gets so wearisome and dreary...many times, I surprise myself by the fact that I still bother to wake up every day."
As she enquires into the reworking of fate, I just groan. "I'm still trying to unweave the absurdity your latest working did, if that answers your question. I feel like a gardener in a field that is more weed than lawn or crop." Grumbling aside, I couldn't really complain too much. The work was at least straightforward, rather than dragged down by the corruption of the Celestial Bureaucracy. Still, ever since it's been tied to the Shinma, I've been able to successfully divorce this patch from Fate and keep it fairly contiguous with what you'd expect in Creation. Until we get into the Genesis experimentation, however, I'm unsure how much further I can push things without support from Spiders."
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Post by Kishar on Nov 3, 2017 4:03:10 GMT
I shrugged at what he said and replied, "If you mean what I think you do, then the answer to that is rather simple. The virtues manifest inside us in patterns much like Willpower does, and as such they can be manifested through the same process, their resonance increasing the power that we draw from our will. This does not inherently mean said virtues are good or bad, just that they exist. Demons have them too, and they express themselves in quite alien and horrific ways to us. The way that gods express them also differs thanks to their non-human nature. Does that not suggest that such virtues are not exactly objective in their nature, and thus do not serve as a good basis from that point of view, now that I think about it? What makes them good anyway, after all, the ones who created them were definitely not good by nature. After all, we rather righteously killed or imprisoned them." I wasn't sure what might be the basis of morality, nor did I care overmuch so long as society seemed to run smoothly, though I did have a potential theory. "Does it not make more sense to base morality instead on what we agree to do and not do in order to have the same done with our own regard? A trade of freedom for safety from the freedom of others? I suppose that would be what government is as well, and failing to find a reasonable source for morality outside of that I think that might be a good option," I posited, not too sure whether or not he would accept it. Again, this was mostly just a fun thought exercise for me. I did not particularly care about the whys, so long as I knew the whats and those whats were favorable to me.
I huff, "Spending too much time around her is likely to give anyone a case of diabetes as their body no longer finds itself able to regulate the amount of sweetness in their body. If that were to happen I would imagine that we would need another working to insulate their sugar from the shinma, lest that happen on a cosmic level and the Neverborn get their way." I raise an eyebrow at him and ask, "And how might that be a point in her favor, may I ask? In fact, that festering core of evil and madness seems to go against her thought that people are fundamentally good anyway. And heaven forbid she give power to the mortals, they'd be corrupted by it even without the curse. They aren't built to handle rulership, they're built to be laborers and prayer factories for the Primordials, to be quite frank. Whatever else they do is just them using the talents for other things, and those talents most certainly aren't geared for rulership." I once again huff and roll my eyes at what he said, "Of course not, that would be silly to be quite honest. How could a fledgeling have anything other than empty words and half knowledge. And while that much is true, I would not put it past persistence and a Zenith to make it happen, even as a fledgeling, especially if Devon never bothered to deal much in social skills."
I shrugged at what he said, "An interesting hypothesis, but unfortunately I cannot provide you any proof of that. He went and locked himself up for quite a bit before it happened, so I have no idea as to the thought process that had to deal with that. Not that I have ever been the best at reading people, especially if he did not want to be read. So I would direct you to someone else when it comes to that. All I have to say on the matter is that it seems to me that it has to do with the curse if he did not reveal it to the world." I thought better of him than to deny the truth and lock it away, not telling anyone of it, so I would not accept that as a possibility without any actual proof to the theory. Such a thing would be unthinkable to me. I shrugged at him when he said that and said, "Well, I suppose that's true enough. I figure theres ways to bind them to fate and probably ways to do it with large Workings, so if you wanted to fix that issue we could probably do something about it here, or perhaps in creation when we get back."
"And I disagree that it would necessarily create such issues. There are ways to run large scale simulations if enough data is had. With enough study of it and translation to a format that can be tested without an effect on fate as a whole such tests could easily be done without affecting it. I simply lack the data to create accurate enough simulations. Even if the simulations are not a hundred percent accurate, they would help cut down on the potential damage and strain you speak of, so that sort of issue is not a problem," I said, waving off the possibility, "So as such, I do not accept the proposition that it has to come down to a forced choice here without evidence to say whether it is right or wrong. There is always ways to gather data and ways to make that data easier to gather." Really, such negative thought just made me suspicious of the entire endeavor. There was nothing beyond the purview of the Twilight Caste in terms of the study of reality, some things just took more time and effort than others.
"Absurdity is relative. A mortal might claim the works of a Terrestrial Circle Sorcery absurd if they do not know it's contents. Such things are only signs of ignorance of how it works," I said with a shrug at what he said. Truly absurd things did not exist, they could not by definition. So long as it played by the basic rules of reality, then it was explainable and thus not absurd in my opinion. I nodded at what he said and replied, "Very well then, I will make sure to try to get everything up and running as soon as possible. I will work on the plans for both the loom and the spiders at the same time though, since they are so interconnected. It might help make everything work out more smoothly."
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Post by shinzo on Nov 3, 2017 5:11:03 GMT
Her point was fairly bizzare and just made me look at her oddly. "Are you saying that just because the Virtues manifested before us and are involved with people different than us, that makes them unfit to base morality on? That just because beings that are not being discussed interpret and enact those virtues in different, alien, and horrific ways, that the way they work for us is suddenly all the worse for it?" It seemed like a bizarre argument, absurd on its face. "The Virtues make for an excellent source of morality because they are both objective and natural. They are a part of us, as much as our willpower, our essence, or our souls." I nod along with her point on alternate sources of morality, though. "I don't disagree with that at all. It's a rather simple way of doing it...though the problem, of course, is the same as with the Tributary issue. People have different standards on what they are willing to give and take. Some might be willing to have things potentially stolen from them so long as they can steal from others, after all, some people are better at being thieves. A bit of a hyperbolic answer, but one that suits meanderings like this."
I raise an eyebrow. "If all the abuses of the Solar Exalted and the reaping scythe of the Sidereals can all be blamed on the influence of -something- that is causing us to act strangely in one way or another, then it certainly lends itself to the notion that people are inherently good. After all, the bad can just be blamed on some outside other that deserves to be destroyed so that the people that matter can remain morally pure. Something akin to the scapegoat tradition that some more superstitious tributary folk practice." I laugh, though my eyes grow slightly more steely in nature. "Mortals were created to be that, yes. And the Exalted were created to be weapons of war, not rulers. And the Gods were created to be glorified maintenance workers, not the rulers of Yu-Shan. And so on, and so forth. Anyone can grow beyond what they were created for, and mortals are no exception...it astounds me that people that were once mortal can forget that." As the conversation turns back to poor Salina, I just roll my eyes. "All the Bureau's sources indicated that it was as much of a surprise to her as anyone else. Clearly eyewitness accounts of the positioning led to that effect. A bit convenient, certainly, but no reason to discount it...review, but not discount."
I just sigh. "It's too bad. I would assume his most recent work on the issue, if it did exist, would be among what he had burnt and hadn't been spread at all, let alone enough to maintain consistent copies." When she mentions that it was due to the curse, he just glances at her askance. "Of course it would be to do with this Curse. What else could be behind it? Our working hypothesis was always that it was a subtle, creeping killer, that it influences Solars towards feats of grandiose overindulgence in whatever they focus in...and likely Sidereals in...well, I'm not quite sure on that yet, but it's likely to do with our numbers together, if the difference between us in the chamber and me here is anything to go by." I shrug. "I was simply curious if there was any works of his that might lend a clue that you might have had a copy of. I didn't think I'd be knocking down a hornet's nest."
I roll my eyes. "It has not, and has never been about whether or not you can avoid the consequences by designing around them. After all, it would go without saying that experiments such as that would not run afoul of this hypothetical legislation anyway. However, again, the choice is not unfairly forced. Say it was acheived with the 'empty words' that tend to dominate the Deliberative. Would you go along with it? Or would you want a tributary? People are not, have not, and will never accept things simply because they're true, unfortunately, and it's not the fault of some curse that is the case." I shrug my shoulders. "Granted, in this case the obvious more beneficial option would be a moratorium on high-essence creations until those large-scale, insulated simulations have been conducted and the data from them gathered. Still, I think that you're swinging too far the other way on what a bit of bureaucratic oversight and regulation can help forestall because you've had bad experience with Ryzala's corrupt practices."
I sigh. "Oh come on. I was poking fun...really, do you even have a sense of humor, or has it atrophied along with your sex drive?" I shrug. "True, though. The only absurd thing is me having to do this work without lackeys to handle the grunt work..." The fact that was going to be her priority got eager nods. "Once we can start working on that, I'll really be in business. With direct control over a loom-analogue, we'll be able to go far more in-depth with experimentation without possible spoilage due to glitches in reality."
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