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Post by Kishar on Nov 3, 2017 7:21:07 GMT
I sighed and shook my head, "The point of it is that the people who created these were not the most moral beings on the face of the earth. Add onto that the fact that it is quite obvious that what we perceive as the Virtues is filtered through our own perceptions as evidenced by the fact that the same virtues are used in a totally different way by other beings, and you end up with a natural questioning of whether or not they serve as an effective basis for morality. The first question to ask is whether we should not question the virtues given their source. If not, then we must question how much of the virtues are actually them, and how much is as a result of how we interpret them. To truly have a firm foundation we would have to get rid of the chaff associated with it and cut down to the core basics of the virtues. Only then can we build up morality from it, as there might be illogical things attached to what we perceive as the virtues that are not actually part of them." There were other ways to interpret the fact that demons viewed the virtues quite differently, but I preferred thinking of them as completely universal, so it required us to cut away that which was not to find the cores of the virtues that were. "One would construct it based off of what one could call an 'average person' with rationality and self interest would agree to, rather than using actual people. Once we found the definition of what we were looking for, all the answers could flow from a question of 'would this person reasonably give up x for y' rather than having to ask actual people in regards to morality," I said, trying to address his point about morality.
"I would argue that the curse simply exacerbates flaws that are already present in all of us, rather than adding things that are new. It would be a much simpler and more powerful way to implement it, and if I were designing it I would go with that. It makes it far more insidious and harder to detect, as it would be able to fly under the radar, especially if it happened slowly over time. It would seem just to be the victims becoming more extreme in their issues as time passed, and alternate theories such as human souls not being meant to live as long as an Elder exalt tends to might be able to be suggested to help cover for it's existence," I said with a shrug before adding, "If this is the case, then this smacks away her assumption that people are fundamentally good. Besides, why would a race of beings that are created by those primordials be fundamentally good? Such a thing seems to be less expected than more given their nature."
"And we fight amongst each other and can't effectively rule creation thanks to our deadlock, the Gods are indolent and corrupt, and so on and so forth. And we are beings that have essence infused into us and hundreds of years to get used to our power with only a relative few of us around. Our Exaltations and Essence help us transcend our limitations, the mortals do not have that privilege. I was once mortal, yes, but I have grown beyond that by the power of the Exaltation and Solar Essence which by it's nature imparts perfection and the transcendence of limits," I said, waving off his argument about the mortals. Exalts have a reason for our transcendence, mortals very much do not, and as such should be kept in their place. Giving them a comfortable lifestyle was to be expected as lords, but they should not aim to be above their station. To be granted sorcery was very much above their station indeed. As for Salina..."Well, to be able to lie and manipulate others, one must be able to do the same to ones self. People with such dedication to their ideals are the most dangerous, as they can justify anything to themselves in order to advance their agendas," I said, waving it off. I had far more confidence in her abilities to deceive than to perform sorcery, that much was for sure.
I shrugged at what he said, leaving it at that. I really didn't have anything to say on the matter anymore when it came to Devon. "Perhaps I am, perhaps I am not. I just don't trust bureaucracy and paperwork. Not until I turn Ryzala into starmetal and do something creative with it, and maybe do her successor the same way just to set an example of what happens when an office crosses the Solar Exalted," I said, rather incensed about the issue at hand, "Maybe after that I might be more amenable to a system that uses paperwork to limit such things. Until then, I would have to say that I disagree with the Deliberative being able to pass laws without providing hard science to back it up. Keep that for things that are empty, such as social policies. For things that concern the hard facts of the world and the way it works, as well as the study of them, such things should be left to the people who know about it and be handled through the scientific method. Ignorant outsiders whose knowledge comes from glossing over such things in general publications should not be allowed to vote," I said, waving it off. Such things bothered the hell out of me, people who knew nothing about a topic should not have their opinion counted after all.
I rolled my eyes at him before saying, "Perhaps you managed to duck being funny without realizing it? That is the only explanation I can think of for how that was supposed to be a joke." I nodded at what he said in regards to the loom though, obviously in complete agreement, "That makes sense, I do hate having to take that into account. It throws extra variables into the studies I would really rather not have to deal with."
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Post by shinzo on Nov 3, 2017 8:25:20 GMT
I smile. Reasonable arguments for the first time. "I would argue that it's entirely likely that the Virtues predated existence in much the same way Essence does. After all, the Raksha exhibit them, in their own strange, alien manner. Their Graces exhibit Virtues, and as such, it is almost certainly not a Creation, but rather, as something that existed since time." As to her little flowchart, I shrug. "As a result, I reject your notion that they are should be questioned based on their source, after all, we have no idea what source that is. As to the second..." I shrug. "Perhaps we interpret them as we do, because that is how they are relevant to us. Just as other races interpret them according to their own internal logic, perhaps that is the corect morality for them. I have no reason to believe otherwise, and thus that thought remains sound. Things don't need to be universal, only applicable." However, that being said, I couldn't say I dislike what she was proposing, though it had definite holes compared to objective morality. "However, such a 'reasonable person' could, by definition, not exist. Like I said earlier, we are not beings of rationality, much as we might aspire to be that way. Why would we build a system for people that don't exist, rather than one for those who do?" I was deliberately tossing her an easy catch.
I nod. "I didn't mean to imply otherwise. However, too much of a good thing can easily turn from a blessing into a curse. Something laudable in an acceptable amount can become a crime in excess. However, I would also say it can't be -too- subtle and -too- insidious, as it needs to have enough real impact that it can prove an applicable enough curse." I shrug. "I wouldn't say it does. If it wasn't driven to excess, then many of these people would be good and reasonable. Even for the Sidereals, you can look at the two camps, not in terms of moderated risk vs potential reward, but in excess vs moderation. The Gold Faction wanted a more moderate response after seeing that the status quo would lead to our doom, while the Bronze faction preached drastic measures. Both had the goal of safeguarding Creation...only one was a laudable action, and the other is one that is a sin, while influenced by others, that will remain with them until their exaltations shift forward." As to her actual argument, though, I shrug. "The Primordials would likely have rather their prayer-cattle to be calm, easy to herd, and with a respectable amount of reverence for them. Many of these correspond to "good" rather than "evil."
I raise an eyebrow. "The only mortals that can use sorcery are those that have successfully awakened their Essence, no mean feat. I think you greatly overestimate both the number of people that will be able to accomplish this, the requisite training and discipline and how it changes them, and also the relative effect that they will be able to do with it. Of course, this is assuming that no Solar just goes around and hands out awakened Essence...that would be absurd. Transcending one's original station, while possible, should be something that is acheived in the long, arduous process required for it." Really, she was just too paranoid about this sort of thing. Especially considering the fact that she was willing to act like the Primordials...perhaps gentler, but no less restrictive. Just because their immediate overlords were Terrestrials with Solars above them instead of Dragon Kings with Gods over them, didn't mean that we should accept the new boss being so similar to the old boss.
I didn't have more to say on Salina. It was obvious that she wouldn't be convinced she was anything but a meddlesome fool who couldn't do anything. Still...it did rub me the wrong way. "You certainly seem to take exception with the fact that she is a Zenith that has taken to, and many would say revolutionized Sorcery. Why is that? After all, you certainly have devoted quite a bit of time and effort into the study of martial arts. You're not a Dawn, you're a Twilight. Why haven't you stayed where your strengths are? And of course, I shouldn't have bothered with them either, or with any knowledge of the occult or the world in general. After all, I'm a Serenity, not Secrets." It just seemed to be hypocritical. I didn't care about Salina any more, but I wanted this resolved.
I raise an eyebrow. "You're being rather extreme." I say simply, as she goes in depth in her plans for Ryzala and her unfortunate successor. I couldn't just stay silent. "Yu-Shan has it's own interests to consider, and, unfortunately, while I would love for things to be shaken up, can't be expected to bend over backwards like the Terrestrial Bureaucracy does. Censure where it's due, as appears to be the case, of course." I raise an eyebrow at her proposed plan, and try not to break into laughter. "So, factionalize things further. Make things even more prone to nepotism and collusion. Surely, that is the best way to ensure the new Deliberative will perform admirably." My eyes were rolling so hard I worried about them remaining in their sockets. "I'll also say, and I obviously have an interest in this, but those tasked with maintaining fate shouldn't be required to be a damn Devonist in order to have some say in how you go about causing bigger and wider tears in it. After all, it's not like the Twilight caste, many Devonists included, didn't want to tear the biggest wholes in Fate they could just to see what happened and record it." As she tries to attack my joke, I just shrug my shoulders. "Not my fault you can't enjoy a bit of hyperbole."
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Post by Kishar on Nov 3, 2017 20:18:43 GMT
I was not convinced argument about the Raksha, it was reasonable enough for someone not well versed on their kind, but I was well enough learned to know better than to accept such an argument to say the least. "It would appear that way to someone who is not well trained in their nature, but as someone who has read up more than a little on the subject I would argue that it is not the case that they naturally have them. They simply mimic the Virtues due to their contact with Creation. After all, if one breaks a Raksha's grace that is related to a particular Virtue, they become unable to display it. These things are not innate to their being, rather things that they picked up along the way. Thus I would argue that it is very likely that the virtues do not predate Creation," I said, not too bothered by that particular argument. It was very likely misguided after all. "And as for that, then it no longer becomes objective anyway, and it becomes unclear where cultural baggage ends and baggage related to our very nature begins. As such, we should still attempt to drill past that to the core of their meaning should we wish to actually use it as a basis for morality," I said, shrugging at what he said. That was an easy enough argument for me to put forth about them after all. "Because that which is does not mean that which should be. Morality, like many other things, is an ideal to be held. Emotions also vary too much from person to person for them to be a useful indicator of what people would agree to, logic at least has universal rules that we can base things on," I said, responding to his final bit about why one would create a system around a being that may well not exist.
I rolled my eyes at that and said, "And not all of these curses likely stem from something that you or anyone would consider laudable. I very much disagree with the notion that people are fundamentally good, such a thing smacks of hopeless idealism that cannot withstand the harsh reality of how we are. Fundamental goodness is just a comfortable lie that those who have not seen the true hell of a war that shakes the foundation of the heavens can believe in." I was very much sold on that, it was not our fundamental nature that brought any good out of us, it was the societies we built, the relations we kept, and the rationality that said that following the rules was a good thing that kept us in check. Left without that, we were simply savage animals with not a trace of goodness within us. "Perhaps for a slave, but such acts are hardly appropriate for a leader who is in charge. They likely would also want their herd to be wary of those who tried to rise above, violently pulling them down to their own level so that they would not be able to pull themselves out from their situation and have to rely on the prayers that they gave," I said, shrugging as I did so, "As such, I do not think that such a thing is a relevant factor for the morality of the Exalted at the very least."
"And such a thing is possible, with young reckless Solars learning to do so and spreading their sorcerous knowledge throughout their kingdoms so that they can gain an edge against their rivals, and after that is done, the flood gates might be opened and it might be too late. Besides, mortals can indeed awaken the essence of other mortals through thaumaturgy. If they are taught that technique and it spreads among the masses from such an incident, it would be very hard to contain. Again, I would argue that having them able to transcend their station is something that is above them, they are mortals and the only way that should be open to them is by becoming one of the Chosen. Without that, they simply don't have the ability to grow enough to match the powers that they have been given," I said, sighing and shaking my head as I did so. The mortals were simply there, they mattered very little besides being the gears and cogs that held societies that we built together, as well as being good resources. Without the hand of the Exalted, they were basically worthless, unable to rule themselves or become able to survive on their own. Such was in their nature, so we could not begrudge them for it and as such it was our duty as higher beings to take care of them.
"There is a difference between simply studying such things and trying to revolutionize them when they are not your domain," I said, shrugging as I said that, "Besides, it is not the Dawn Caste that has the claim to mastery of the martial arts, it is the Sidereals as much as it would pain someone like Merela to admit. I acknowledge the superiority of your kind in these arts, and I learn from your kind to further my own research by taking the lessons of such things and applying them to the areas that I am most adept in as a Twilight. I have no qualms with non-Twilights learning Sorcery or even being adept at it, what I take great offense to is one trying to step in and claim leadership over us in such things and taking over the Great Tower of Sperimen, the home of all learning and a bastion of the Twilights for centuries. She should know her place and go back to Meru and argue about some social policy in the Deliberative, especially considering she is barely over a millenium old, a child not even halfway through the natural Solar lifespan, let alone the augmented one that we can easily achieve" I said, scoffing at the very notion that a Zenith should be considered a leader in the field of Sorcery.
"And why not? With the Unconquered Sun and the Incarnae neglecting their duties, it falls to their Chosen to run things. Naturally, they should obey us when it comes to our purviews. It would make no sense for us to command Creation but those who rule the concepts related to Creation be above our judgement and adjudication should we find them lacking in their duties, as most if not all Gods seem to be according to your testimony. Letting them run things internally simply breeds corruption and failure to do their jobs as far as the evidence seems to show," I said rather bluntly in regards to my opinion of Heaven and how the Celestial Bureaucracy was running, "Gods who do their jobs admirably like Lytek have no occasion to care about having such reviews be handled externally, after all, the only ones with a problem with this are the ones with something to hide and do so by bribing their fellow gods." I rolled my eyes right back at him, "And what is the problem with expecting things that are provable and hard and fast to have data backing up rulings on them to prevent empty minded politicians from using their political wiles to get things they don't like banned without any evidence. And again, you yourself don't need to be one, you simply would need to understand the principles of it or get someone who does to actually explain it instead of just insisting that it is a thing and we should stop without explaining the hows and whys of it."
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Post by shinzo on Nov 3, 2017 21:22:08 GMT
I sigh, and shrug. "I suppose that's not a completely untenable position, but I would also figure that drilling wouldn't be difficult at all. After all, it's not exactly difficult to understand for us how we react to the Virtues. It is a physical phenomenon. I would also reject the idea that we need necessarily to find that objective core. Why should we care what the core of compassion is when we can know how it is that we interact with compassion and how it's relevant for us? It just seems to be chasing after irrelevant information that would likely produce information that is fairly useless in it's inapplicability to us." I was rather confused by her argument as to the need for full objectivity. It just didn't make sense when dealing with something like this. What was the problem with a bit of baggage that would let us best get at what was relevant to us? Still, I nod with what she says. "Perhaps. I would only caution that in the creation of this 'rational individual' that you do not define rationality in a way that most would disagree with but yourself. That is always a problem, I've found, with many who attempt to couch their opinions under a cloak of logic and rationality...they tend to see themselves as the logical and rational." I don't even bother with the point on the Fair Folk. I didn't bother with what went on in the Pure Chaos, merely what happened when they came here and needed to be exterminated.
I smile at her attempt to deflect it, and decide to give her a bit more trouble. "Ah, but when that curse amplifies them in ways that have been corrupted and perverted by the abuses of society, who can blame them for acting evilly? After all, Thousand Struggles only began when there was the discovery that they were vulnerable to death by age AND the fact that, with the deliberative set up as-is, the desire for power based on the existence of hierarchy split them into people that were previously content with the knowledge that they would eventually have the reins of power as a matter of probability. Take the vile corruptive influence of the Deliberative's structure out, and no Thousand Struggles would have occurred." Laughing, I shrug. "However, again, I'm getting dragged into positions I don't agree with because of your very pointed argumentative streak. You should calm down, stop trying to cast people that hold views opposite from yourself down, and focus on what you can do to build everything up. Far more productive, I would figure." With her point on mortals needing to drag each other down, I just raise an eyebrow. "No, I don't believe that's the case. They'd want productive and ambitious humans to expand their population potential...and leave it to the Dragon Kings to strike down mortals who climb too high. Without artificial fetters like those, I at least see a great deal of potential in how far they can go...limited in many respects, and obviously inferior to the Exalted, but present nonetheless."
I raise an eyebrow at her dismissal at the difficulty of awakening essence. "For mortals to do it, they either risk both the life of the thaumaturge and the individual, or they go under an ascetic journey of intense self-reflection for over five years. The former I can see a very clear problem with allowing, and should rightly be outlawed both for its danger and the potential for people to abuse it, but the latter should be offered as a solution, not something else to be banned in order to repress people who have the innate capability to grow further." I shrug. "I simply believe that the very fact that they can do that innately means it is not above their station. They have the ability to grow, to expand, and to unreasonably curtail that out of fear is something I can't accept."
Again with wild claims...and this time, on something actually fairly personal to me. "It was an example. But even among us, it is not the Sidereals in general that have an innate mastery of martial arts, it is the Endings caste. Based on that, would it really be fair to say that I shouldn't be able to go and master them, or even create a new Art if I so desire?" It just seems absurd. I wasn't going to go back on my claim of being one of the most skilled Sidereals in martial arts just because it wasn't my place. That was incredibly insulting. As for Salina, I roll my eyes. "I don't think she claimed it...after all, it was given to her, remember? Especially considering many people are willing to default to her views to the point that there is an Absorbtion related to her school."
I sigh. She really was stubborn about this. "No, I disagree utterly. The Solar Exalted have rulership and mastery over Creation. However, the affairs of the Celestial Bureaucracy are subject to the laws and regulations, and thus, the authority, of Yu-Shan. Simply because they have applications on Creation doesn't mean the Solars are placed above them. If that were the case, why even have a Celestial Bureaucracy? Why would Solars work within the Bureaucracy instead of simply command it? It is an absurd notion to me." I shrug. "Now, do I believe that Solars couldn't do a great deal to repair the indolence and corruption of the Celestial Bureaucracy? Of course not. But just because they should do that doesn't mean that they suddenly should gain utter authority over a system that has always been separate and distinct from the Creation Ruling Mandate." It was absurd that the Solars, whose jobs were to govern Creation, would suddenly be thrust into the ability to review and overturn the government of Yu-Shan. Absolutely insane, and would be a feather in the cap of the Bronze Faction. "As for the need for evidence, the problem is, of course, that the only evidence you would accept would be evidence shown using Devonian principles. Evidence that heavy use of magitech and heavy mote consumption cause damage to Fate is objective and proven. The ball is in the court, as far as I'm concerned, for you to show that you can adapt a way not to cause said damage."
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Post by Kishar on Nov 5, 2017 2:54:32 GMT
I shrugged to what he said and replied, "Perhaps, perhaps not. It is neither my field of expertise nor one that I know what field exactly it would fall under. However, I would argue that we do indeed need to drill down to that core. After all, the baggage that we attach to the virtues is baggage related to our mortal origins, and such baggage is related to our original function. As such function is quite opposite to the position we take now, we must look to find what constitutes the core of things like Conviction so that we can extrapolate how to emulate it in our role as the rulers of Creation rather than relying on instincts and impulses more suited to the average masses of Creation." I sighed and shook my head as I thought about that, it was obvious that his compassion was blinding him to the fact that our morality had to be different than the morality that guided us as mortals. "So yes, the drilling is necessary, since while the Exaltation lifts up our will and makes us better, our values and morals are still stuck in the same mode as a normal mortal, which is not very useful when it comes to having to rule Creation," I added at the end, making my point clear on it.
I raised an eyebrow at him and asked, "Do you think that I am not going based off of the simple rules of logic, as well as self preservation and rationality? I mean, while that might be hard for me to do, I could always try to create such a being with my Genesis lab and examine their opinions in order to do it. It might need some strange exotic ingredients, but I wouldn't say such a thing was impossible. Especially if I could get my hands on some distilled rationality as an ingredient. That would work quite well for that. Hmmm, I might just have to do that later, but it will have to wait. I have enough projects for now. Thoughts for later though, more science to do is always good." I nodded to myself as I said that, obviously lost in thought for a few seconds as I came up with a few plans for that sort of things before shoving it into the back of my mind for use later.
I rolled my eyes and shook my head at what he said, "Such things can make people worse, but if one were to trace back the evil they would find it tracing back to the nature of those who set up such a system. If you would like I could set up a simulation of what humans are like without society for you, using data I have gathered about mortals from the inside out. I have such a system here, and I have run it before. Evil still very much exists without society," I said, waving it off before adding, "Evil is a concept that predates humans after all, look at The Ebon Dragon. He existed before mortals, and he likely had a hand in the way they were sculpted somehow. Thus I do believe that such optimism is totally unfounded." I kind of looked at him a bit funny as he said that and replied, "But the law of noncontradiction means that both cannot be correct at the same time, and as such it is necessary that only one or the other is true. As such, the demolition of the opposing side becomes something of a necessity in this sort of case."
As for his point on mortals I just sighed and shook my head, "I disagree quite completely on the potential of Mortals. Their limits are tied at the top end to what I might call the third degree of essence, and with a tiny pool of it as well. Stuck to the first circle of sorcery and having the same sorts of trouble with terrestrial martial arts that Terrestrials have with the Celestial arts. And this is after years upon years of training to unlock their potential. I see no reason why mortals, at least as they are now, should be relied upon at all given how limited they are. If one were to change their nature and make them more akin to the Created races or the Godblooded, that might make them at least a bit more useful, but a base mortal is only worthwhile to those Exalted who do not have better options available. To someone like myself who can summon, build, or create better creations, they simply are charges to be looked after."
I shrug, "Either that, or ones trusted unwisely with the arts of creating artifacts create one that lets them do it more safely, they find unscrupulous godbloods or half-castes, or any number of ways that might open up with time should one or another be put down. The solution I found was quite simple, really. I was mostly concerned about the potential of Demons being summoned in my domain, so on top of outlawing demon summoning and squashing the thaumaturgy required to do such things, I made a working upon my own shaped lands, as all of them are, to use countermagic on any summon demon spell not authorized by me in my domain. I am more worried about those who have not done so, as the corruption can spread unchecked from there," I said, sighing and shaking my head. Demons were far too dangerous to let mortals anywhere near them, and as such we needed to suppress that entirely.
"Creation of a new art and learning of the arts is quite different than creating a new absorption and creating an entirely new paradigm in the arts, Shinzo. It would be as if you declared yourself to be one of the greatest masters of the Sidereal arts in Creation and made an entirely new way of doing them," I said, sighing and shaking my head before continuing,"Besides, the structure of the Sidereal society is quite different from the structure of how we Solars organize ourselves. To compare the two would be quite a bit of folly in my opinion." I sighed and shook my head again at what he said after that and replied, "And I do not believe for a second that she did not engineer that to happen by manipulating Devon and using her natural affinity for empty words to make it happen. With the approval of Devon, naturally younger Solars would find her school appealing, she has authority and she is the one in charge of Sperimen. She also gives out information for free and her lack of hierarchy appeals to the younger upstarts who have not had time to accumulate clout and wisdom, nor time to prove themselves."
I sighed and shook my head, "I said the Exalted, not just the Solar Exalted. I specifically meant that we would be acting in the stead of the Incarnae, managing the bureaus that they should be since we are their Chosen, and thus their representatives in the eyes of Heaven. It is a temporary fix until we can actually get them away from their games and back to doing their jobs. The Celestial Gods themselves obviously cannot do their jobs on their own without supervision as evidenced by the rampant corruption and waste, so obviously something must change in how things are run. That means the bosses coming back, or at the very least their representatives cleaning house and putting themselves in the place where they belong." I was not arguing for something that drastic, at least in my opinion. I was simply arguing that we take our roles as the chosen of the Incarnae a bit more literally so that we could fix everything there and get them to do their damn jobs.
"By Devonian principles I only mean something that is objective, replicable, and actually have evidence to back it up. Vague warnings and anecdotes are not something that I live by, Shinzo. I do not think that if it was as much of a problem as you seem to say it is that it would be hard to find some things with it. Proof, any of it, would be nice to have even if it doesn't fully show it. Just something besides your assurance that such things are objective and proven would be very helpful," I said, starting to be a bit irritated as he seemed to think that what I was looking for was something unreasonable or irrational. I just wanted evidence, or at least something more than a damned assurance from someone whose job would be made easier by us not doing it that it was true. "And what I mean by that is that it affects it in a way that cannot be compensated for by the spiders. Some effect it has on creation that is lasting and missed by the repair that the spiders naturally do. If you have any evidence at all of something like that, it would do a lot of good in trying to convince me that you are right about this."
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Post by shinzo on Nov 5, 2017 6:26:53 GMT
"And I would contend that trying to ignore what keeps us grounded is one of the easiest ways to lose ourselves utterly." A simple response to what she said, but one that I could not stress enough. Perhaps it was a result of, in many ways due to the unfortunate state of Heaven, the Sidereal exaltation being potentially the most mundane Celestial Exaltation in practice. We had our power, but we had arcane, unknowable limitations placed on us by superiors. We toiled in the Bureaucracy, we endured abuses of gods that, were we unshackled, we could command with ease. But with those annoyances and inconveniences came a certain degree of enlightenment...or at least, I thought it did, but the events of the Prophecies left me less sure of that. Perhaps that was just futile arrogance, like much of what Kishar was speaking? It was difficult to say.
At her question, I shrug. "I don't particularly have direct thoughts on the matter. After all, I haven't observed you long enough to make sure that's the case. I don't have reason to disprove of you, of course, other than many people who share your Absorbtion I've spoken to being more like what I said, rather than what you said. I merely spoke words of caution." The ability to couch one's own opinions behind a veneer of rationality was tempting, seductive, and subtle, to the point one might not even realize it's occurring. Given the arrogance of the Solar Deliberative, it went without saying it was common practice.
I smile and raise an eyebrow. "Oh? I'm curious to see. I share your belief on evil's origin, but, frankly, it wasn't something I cared enough about to truly dig too deep." Of course, I couldn't help but imagine I'd find certain flaws in her methodology, and imagine that others existed that I was not well-versed enough in her craft to catch. Alas, such was the way of things. "However, I do much disagree about the Ebon Dragon's role in humanity's creation. If Autocthon's account of the Creation is to be trusted, The Dragon's Shadow's role was in the devisement of Fate above Samsara, and the instillment of color into Creation. It was Autocthon that created life, and thus, the mortal races. At most, the Ebon Dragon presided over the concept of betrayal, and to that end, even those who were designed to be incapable of it succumbed to it." I shrug. "Though really, at that point you can just foist it on him, and so this merry game continues." I shrug. "I don't believe there isn't an answer. I just believe coming to a judgment before evidence is adequately found one way or the other is foolish. It is a debate that has raged since the beginning of Creation, and will likely continue long afterwards."
I roll my eyes at her attempt to paint mortal humans into a corner with that...all the while completely misunderstanding my point. "Of course they are. They are full of potential in spite of their array of weaknesses, as you described. I do not contest that they are inferior on a physical level than the other creations possible. However, none of this, none of any of what we have, would have been possible, had they not had some inner spark, some passion, that ignited the Maker to hold them as his dearest. We would not have had his agreement to join in the Incarnae's plot were it not for his desire to see his smallest creation break free of the same shackles that he was bound under. And while such would likely be dismissed as subjectivism by you, I too find a spark to them. Their lot in life will likely not change, not so long as the Exalted hold the reins of Creation. But then...'there is always an ending.'" I leave it at that. I didn't need to say any more. As she ventures her own solution, I shrug. "Sure. That's a very applicable compromise, so long as the rest of Sorcery is available to them."
I raise an eyebrow at her very blanket statement. "Oh really? Do tell. Here I was thinking it was just a matter of what every caste member innately specialized in. If anything, I would figure there would be far more overlap. After all, Sidereals are sequestered according to caste to each of the departments of the Bureau of Destiny that best fit their caste and trained mostly in those tools, and foster their own specialties on the job or in our free time. Meanwhile, Solars all meet in the Deliberative, or rule their own individual kingdoms, which should foster a sense of unity of all Solars, and yet seperateness from any other group at the same time." I shrug. "From what I had heard, she was quite content spreading her theory among Lunars until Devon made his surprise announcement. She is a bit of a known quantity, after all, young as she is. Unless this is all some scheme that would be enough to make the Ebon Dragon approve, I find it simpler to believe that Devon simply had his change of heart."
And then this. No. I couldn't tolerate this at all. "Under no circumstances. I absolutely cannot agree." It was absurd. Ludicrous. "You are honestly asking me to support an idea that would effectively place total control of Heaven and Creation in the hands of the Solar Exalted. The Unconquered Sun has absolute authority over the Celestial Bureaucracy, only limited by his own detached nature from the mundane comings and goings of it. If you are to take on the responsibilities of the Unconquered Sun, there would be no one to countermand you. Which is utterly, inexcusably, unacceptable. Unless serious reform are taken to the way the Creation-Ruling Mandate is exercised and this flaw of the Exalted is excised, that would only hasten the coming of the Prophecy of Darkness. Even with those, that much power in the hands of so few could easily corrupt even the good-hearted of them...and there are many, unfortunately, who are not."
At her last point, I smirk. "I'm working on it. Of course, as I said, we -have- that data back in Yu-Shan, but we can't really access it now. So I'm starting from scratch...well, what's in my head is there, but I can't really show it and don't have evidence for it...yet." I shrug. "In addition to the demonstrably larger snarls in Fate that surround grand workings...this being no exception...there have been present interstices in reality created that can cause unfortunates to fall outside fate...who's existence is only able to be found by calculating "holes" in fate. This is a very recent phenomenon, correlating directly with the drastic uptick in Twilight activity since the end of the Second Deliberative Era...and don't even get me started on Wyldhand..." I sigh and shake my head. "While they portend a pattern of rather...strange, celestial concerns, it's undoubtable that they are most calculable around spaces of high-Essence destiny algorithms. And while the Spiders do eventually adapt to the hole, it takes them quite a long time, and they are becoming increasingly common."
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Post by Kishar on Nov 5, 2017 8:04:04 GMT
I shrugged at what he said, and decided that I could at least share some basic details about it, after all, he did seem interested. "I'll spare you the details, but it involves taking a mortal base template, stripping it of emotion, and replacing it with liquid reason that I happen to have a few sources for. Being able to threaten Raksha with infecting the waypoints they frequent with Abyssal energy as well as being able to bind third circle demons to my will is rather useful for obtaining magical components after all," I said with a shrug as I carried on. There wasn't anything else really relevant to what he would probably understand here, so I just would move on from there. After all, it was a project that required more than a bit of knowledge of Genesis to do properly after all. As for his account about humans, "Well, we all know that the Dragon acts subtly. As such, it is highly likely that he could have put such a thing into humans without anyone noticing, but again, such a thing is merely conjecture. I am unsure if this is what happened, or if it was simply a flaw that was overlooked by Autochthon himself, as he does tend to be quite brilliant but prone to making critical errors when it matters most, especially if some flaw of the Exaltation was exploited to curse us."
I shrugged and replied, "Of course they had something that made Autochthon love them so, it was the spark of imagination and the ability to use technology that made them so appealing to him. This is something that we share, and we are the perfection of what mortals can become, infused with the power of Gods and surpassing them by the combination. I do not see how they could develop any more than that really, even as a whole. They simply do not have the power to protect themselves from the powers that would seek to prey on them should the Exalted disappear, it simply seems quite silly to me. Perhaps against some first circle demons, but against Raksha Nobles and Second Circle Demons, they would be powerless no matter their numbers and armaments that mere mortals could use. They simply do not have the power to survive without our patronage, to be frank." Such a thing seemed rather impossible to me, and as such it made me certain that at least the mortals from Creation were not able to survive on their own.
"What irks me the most about her is that she is turning something of the Twilight's domain into something of the Zenith's domain. First she uses her words and not her sorcerous research on it's own to become the head by manipulating Devon, and then she uses trickery and verbal deception to get her working into place rather than showing the actual merits of such a plan. She neither respects the practice's roots, nor does she respect the hierarchy that she was stepping into, using her trickery and guile to dismantle it as much as she wished," I said, spitting acid as I spoke and adding, "I would not be surprised if the Ebon Dragon enjoyed watching her antics, and were she a less moral person I would be suspicious of her allegiances and be looking for every trace of the Ebon Dragon on her. Even now I am suspicious, just in case such an act is a ruse and she seeks to increase the amount of sorcerers in the world to help summon the Yozi out of Malfeas one part at a time."
"I did not intend to implement this before that was done, of course. Such a thing would be ludicrous, one must have their own house in order before they intervene in the house of another. Not only that, but I had intended to have the same delegations take place and not really have the Solars have anything but nominal control over the bureaus that the Lunars and Sidereals had authority over," I said, exasperated that he had assumed the worst, "I know that I am not the best at articulating my thoughts at times, but I would ask that you be willing to give at least some generosity here. If that is still objectionable to you, I would like to hear your idea on how to sort out that mess. Leaving it be simply will not do, there is too much wrong there and again it is a mere stopgap until we figure out a way into the Jade Dome and break those Malfeas damned games and make the Incarnae do their damned jobs." I was obviously frustrated and heated at this point, and just wanted things to go right. Empty words getting in the way of my ideas always irked be after all.
"If you have evidence of such things, even theoretical, I would be glad to see it. I have been presented with absolutely none of it since it never gets published through Sperimen and I do not attend the deliberative, nor do a lot of the other older Solars who rule Tributaries, as we are mostly excused from such tedious duties," I said with a sigh and a shake of my head. I was rather tired out from the ritual and the argument however, and it was obvious that it was wearing on me. I just wanted to not have to deal with this bullshit right about now and have things actually go right for a change here. I hated talking to people, I could not articulate my ideas well enough without it being a complete lesson and using charms so it always frustrated me when things just didn't come out right.
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Post by shinzo on Nov 5, 2017 8:46:31 GMT
I coudln't help but wince at the very idea at what she was proposing. Not that it would be unconscionable, far from it. If anything, such an individual would not care about the position they were in, it wouldn't be rational to miss that which they can't have, but still, something about the idea irked at my very soul. "Well, it could be a good experiment, I suppose?" I wasn't confident, but then, she probably shouldn't have expected me to be confident about something like that. As to the latter, I shrug. "Sure, it's possible. But when that same drive is inside the very being that serves as the Dragon's opposite, the shining light to dispel shadow, I'm not sure that it's something that inherent. Between that and the fact that humans, because of their inherent weakness, were generally ignored by all the Primordials save Autocthon...well, I can't write it off because of how insidious the Ebon Dragon can be, but it doesn't seem any more likely than it is unlikely, I can at least say." I do nod my head at her point. "Quite true, there. It's entirely possible that there is some flaw in the creation, but again, no real evidence of that I can see."
I shrug. "I'm not sure I agree with that. Frankly, we have never had need to see just how far they could push the crafts to that end, after all, there have always been something to shepherd them. Whether it was the Dragon-Kings and the Gods, or the Terrestrials and Celestials, there have always been safeguards. They have not needed to fend for themselves, and there have always been constraints on it by those that govern them." I shrug. "I have faith in how far that spark of ingenuity can take them. While it could never match the glory that the Exalted can make, I certainly wouldn't believe they are hopeless."
Ahhhhh. It took long enough for the core of the issue to come forth. There was something I could agree with. "In that case, I can certainly see your frustration." I reach up from my work to give her a squeeze on the shoulder. I wanted to positively enforce, just a bit, that she could come to that core nature of her problems, and that would be a great thing to talk about. I didn't like the puffery, the noise she used to hide her real problems. It just made things so much more annoying to dig at. It was especially bad when talking about her old mate, but the habit seemed to extend far further. "I do like it when you don't try to hide behind your knowledge, Kishar. We both know you're smarter than me. But it doesn't help me understand you to have it thrown in my face." With that gentle chiding, I continue, providing more positivity. "You have some very real reasons to think she's tearing Sorcery apart and making it something strange, alien, and operating under a different scope. I understand that now." I still wasn't convinced it was an act of manipulation on her part to have Devon perform, out of the blue, something so strange and obviously suspicious, but I didn't need to say that. "I can definitely agree with your complaints about the Working's origination, shady practices like that certainly shouldn't engender people to your cause. The fact that it's having the effect is definitely an unfair result, and one I agree should be worked against."
I sigh, shaking my head. "I was too hasty...I apologize." I glance to the side. "I...I might still be more affected by what happened at the Prophecy than I hoped I was. It's...still deep in my head. That dread vision...it was worse than anything I've ever seen. Anything I could have imagined. And with how narrow and unsteady the Gold Prophecy can be...it was just...it felt too sudden, too fast." I hang my head. "It wasn't anything about how you said it, really. I doubt I would have had a different reaction no matter how coaxed it was." I try to think of the solution...and one comes to my mind. "The Solars serve in the Unconquered Sun's postition...as a veto. the Lunar Exalted handle reformation of the Bureau of Seasons, Humanity, and Nature, while the Sidereals handle Destiny and Heaven. Each side presents their proposed actions, though Lunars would likely need to be screened for influence by their Mates for this process, and the Solars decide whether those reforms are to be accepted or rejected, giving reasons and advice accompanying a rejection." I shrug. "It's a bit bureaucratic, but it should limit concentration of power and keep things narrow, while providing the Gods reassurance that this isn't some direct hostile takeover...even though it will likely prove a dramatic reshuffling." I shrug. "I would also propose stating whatever plan is agreed upon in advance, and give the Gods a fair chance to implement self-policing practices. Being too heavy-handed cost us the Maker, after all."
I smile wryly. "Well, considering we're not really allowed to do much of anything at all with the Deliberative, you probably wouldn't have known if you had." Seeing her grow weary, I sigh. "I had hoped that this would prove engaging and enjoyable...not end up tiring you out and frustrating you. I'm...really sorry it turned out like this." I bite my lip, obviously frustrated at myself. "If there's anything I can do to make up for it, please, don't hesitate..."
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Post by Kishar on Nov 5, 2017 9:34:03 GMT
I shrugged at what he said, not really having any argument against it. "Indeed, and the truth is something lost to the annals of history and the three spheres cataclysm, unfortunately. All we can guess at is whether or not it is inherent or not, and perhaps take stabs at the source. I am on the side of inherent evil, but I am a product of war and suffering. For someone as naive and unblooded as Salina I suppose it makes sense that she would be more on the side of inherent good. That path is dangerous however, because it becomes very easy to become a sympathizer as well. With that sort of view, what else ends up having fundamental good in them? Demons, Raksha, the Yozi? That is why I find it not only wrong but rather dangerous to the point where I am rather vehemently against it," I said, sighing and shaking my head a bit at that. It just irked me that anyone could have such stupid, naive views and be one of the Exalted. Especially with the position in society she had maneuvered herself into, it was a dangerous path that she was treading with such naivety.
I shrugged and said, "Mortals cannot reach elder essence levels, and have issues hitting anything above the third tier of it, as such, they are incapable of creating strong enough wonders to protect themselves. They cannot work faster, the magical materials reject them, and they have no charms to aid them in their endeavors. The most potent materials would take so much mortal life to obtain, and they are so short lived they will never be experienced enough to learn all the world has to offer. I admire your faith, but I find it terribly misguided and a romantic daydream to be frank." Mortals from creation were designed to be cattle who could not take care of themselves. The humans here seemed to be different, likely not created to be the cattle that the ones that came from our realm seemed to be. "A caveat I will give however is I speak of the mortals from Creation at least, I do not know about the ones from here or from potentially other places. Such beings have different origins and no matter how similar they may seem, they do not serve as a good example of what the mortals from home might achieve. I do want to see what they are capable of, however. It seems like an interesting experiment," I said, nodding to myself as I continued.
"I am not hiding behind anything, all of these are related to my issues with her," I said, giving him a bit of an eye as he implied that I hadn't meant what I was saying before. I wasn't hiding anything, this was just yet another of my complaints that I had about her, that was certainly true. "I'm glad that my accidental slip into pathos managed to get through to you, but I wished my logic would have gotten to you more effectively. It irks me to think that emotion is a better tool for dealing with you than intellect. If that is what it will end up with, I will need to create more potent alcohol and reinforce my body's ability to deal with the negative consequences of it considering how drunk I will need to be on a daily basis to deal with such things." I might have just been acting a bit petulant but I was tired out at this point and I rather hated using emotion for things.
I just sighed and slumped over on a couch that was nearby as he talked about it, not really bothering much with it as I just waved a bottle of potent alcohol into existence. I needed a drink now, I was mentally exhausted and not in the mood to talk more about these things right now. "Sure, fine. That sounds like it could work I suppose. I don't know about giving the gods advance notice let alone a choice since that would just be prolonging the inevitable, but that is a matter for another time. Autochthon had the ability to leave, the Gods do not. And being a bit fatalistic, the ones who try to resist would make for good material for the solution I had mentioned earlier to distribute the essence disruption throughout creation to lessen the direct impact on individual places and make it easier to deal with." I waved off his offer to help and wasn't much in the mood for that, I could do fine enough on my own after all, "Thanks for the offer but you have your own work to do right now. I see no reason to interrupt it to have you try to make up for some emotional burden you have put upon yourself. Theres more important things at hand than either of our emotions after all."
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Post by shinzo on Nov 5, 2017 18:30:39 GMT
I nod. "I can agree with that. I would hope she wouldn't think to extend it to beings like the Raksha, Yozi, and Demons, though I don't agree that she does at all. At least with regards to demons, she seems to dislike them quite a bit." I smile. "If you talked to her, I think she would be willing to get on board with the idea of your countermagic-working, frankly. Though she would likely disagree that it should be limited to Mortals, her dislike of them certainly seems to eclipse your own." I shrug. "I don't believe the Yozi or Raksha are inherently evil, excepting the Ebon Dragon, of course. They are far too alien, far too distant from the morality they crafted into the shinma for their creations or seek to emulate with their Graces. By the same token, of course, they aren't -good- by any stretch, we were perfectly in the right for dethroning the Primordials, even if the rebellion began for the wrong reasons."
I shrug as she goes in-depth into her reasoning why mortals don't have the ability to survive. I just don't find them to be relevant at all. "I'm happy to agree to disagree if you are. Merely the attainment of selfhood allows them to be so much more than they would be if they just accept the role given to them. They can learn Terrestrial Circle Sorcery. They can learn Terrestrial Martial Arts. While they are limited, they can make use of magitech, and even the Magical Materials, so long as they can work around the fact that they suffer the limitations we do working with ones we are not aligned to, though the Magical Materials are not necessary to begin with. And most importantly, they can have a strength of numbers that puts even the Terrestrials to shame, were they to truly unlock their potential and let it flow amidst their population." I glance vaguely back in the direction of the city we had escaped. "While you might think these humans are so distinct from our own, I would posit to say that theirs is the result of a society that has not had Exalted or Dragon-Kings to watch over them, and had to develop on their own. I think it's too impossible to say for sure that making a judgment at the moment is hasty, and would suggest that erring on the side of the potential of where we came from isn't a bad thing."
I tilt my head as she seems to ascribe meaning to my words I didn't intend. "No, but you were. You were hiding a reason ascribed more to pathos than logos. You obviously meant what you said before, but meanings attributed to the heart, to feelings, are naturally more intrinsically important to individuals of passion than simple logical arguments." I sigh. "It's not that the pathos itself was what did it, you know. It's just that, as purely logical arguments, they had flaws of reasoning that left them difficult to fully stand behind." If she wanted to be using pure logic and reasoning to get her points across, she needed, unfortunately, to be far more ready to respond to counterargument or simply be willing to accept that rationally things were of small concerns. Meanwhile, when she actually opened up, actually revealed her core, personal problems with what was happening, that was when results could be obtained. "It's too bad you seem to think of emotion as a dirty word. After all, we are all emotional creatures, even and especially you. Logic and reason are tools we work with, while emotions and feelings are who we truly are." I smirk a bit. "If I'm willing to talk to you in your language, you could at least try a bit to talk in mind without defaulting to alcohol. Then again, alcohol is pretty great, so..."
I sigh as she slinks back into the slump that had claimed her before, shaking my head. "Well, you're not wrong in many respects." I didn't like it, but it may be true, though I coudln't help but believe that dismissing self-regulation once pressure was put on them would be a mistake. It worked for the Jadeborn, even if it was done in about the worst way possible. "Still...you know who and what I am. The emotions and feelings of people will always be incredibly important to me." Walking over behind the couch, I grin and pull her into a hug. "As long as that is part of my job, I can't just ignore it, now can I? That would be irresponsible~" She was a very interesting individual. Manic-depressive, arrogant, opinionated, ingenious in nearly every sense of the word. But beneath all of that, she knew that she was someone that needed help. And he couldn't just ignore someone that needed help. Breaking the contact with a smile, I shrug. "I'll finish cleaning up the anomalies and get my notes into your workshop. It will have math that would state where an interstice would likely appear based on this work of sorcery, but it's hardly exact based on it's nature, and without a Loom to weave fate, it's hard to say whether the result will be similar enough to be comparable." I give her shoulder a last squeeze, then head out to do my other, less important job.
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Post by Kishar on Nov 5, 2017 23:40:57 GMT
I shrugged at what he said, not buying it really. "Sure, it might seem like it but I would be unsurprised if it was a ruse to be quite honest. As I had said, any Solar with training in The Time is Now and puissant enough Essence can summon a Third Circle whenever they please, I have done it more than once myself. It becomes a bit more troublesome, but for someone like myself such a thing is not an issue. And beyond that, I find it absurd to bind the Chosen to the same things that the mortals are bound to. We have the power to control them if we put our minds to it, and we can break their wills to our liking. They serve as a source of easy labor for dangerous tasks after all," I said, shrugging as I said that. I had no qualms about other Exalts being allowed to summon Demons so long as they were monitored for potential corruption. After all, unlike with mortals, the Exalted had a very good chance of avoiding their predations and instead binding them to their will. "And as they are not good, they are evil by their very nature. One might be lesser or greater degrees, but it stands to reason one would be on the spectrum of good to evil in one direction or another. It does not matter whether they are naturally divorced from the spectrum, the judgement is ours. They were quite rightly designated Creatures of Darkness after all, and unlike Five Days Darkness, it wasn't out of a necessity of their being," I added, letting my opinion on them be known.
I shrugged at what he said and replied, "I would need to do more to examine them and their world's history in order to make such a judgement. They might have inherited powers that set them apart from the humans where we are from, or perhaps they had other factors that differentiate them from the ones from Creation. The jury is still out, you are correct, but I would argue that there is indeed a crucial difference more than just not having the Dragon Kings and the Exalted above them. That much is for sure. A lack of external threats such as the Raksha and the Yozi may also have helped as well, but again, I do believe there is more to it than that." Mortals were not normally capable of these things, so there had to be something that explained it more than just the particularities of this world. They simply did not have the potential to do these things besides with the help of the Exaltation or being granted divine powers and gifts by their heritage or the favor of a deity. That was simply the way things were, that much was known by the Exalted after all.
I shrugged at what he said and replied, "And that is why I hate having to put my thoughts into words. I am nowhere near as skilled a wordsmith as I am with pure knowledge. It limits my ability to communicate it outside of the technical side of things and keeps me from being able to argue with you efficiently considering your skill in such things." It irked me that it was a thing, but I didn't want to spend too much more time on honing such skills, since they were an antithesis to what it was to be a Twilight. We sought the truth, knowledge, the nature of the world, not tried to become better debaters that made speeches to convince people with empty words. "It is a dirty word to be frank, Emotion is the source of bias, which clouds scientific pursuits and makes it harder to do our research, either because of the bias or some petty emotions getting in the way of dissecting things or creating things that could cause harm if not properly controlled," I sighed and shook my head, "And that is because rationality makes sense and is objective. Emotion would require me to turn off far too much of my brain to find it acceptable, hence the alcohol."
I just sighed and waved as he talked about those things and drank my alcohol. I wasn't in the mood to jab back about that right now. I just wanted to drink right now, not jab back and forth over things that were bothering me. "Yes yes, please do so. It might make things much easier for your arguments in the future at least." With that, I just snapped my fingers and reappeared in my lounge, flopping on my bed and drinking straight from the bottle.
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